The Political Junkie Thread

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I'm liking this guy Kinzinger:



https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnbfcL

Best quote ever! #nailedit

The 180 by so many Republicans is embarrassing. Mitch McConnell voted against impeachment and then gave a speech in which he basically said Trump was guilty. It’s like they’re afraid the Trump supporters are going to show up at the Capitol again.

I say this with the best possible intent so I hope no one is upset by the language:

Liz Cheney is the only one of them with balls.

But then again, women typically have the most courage. Our culture builds up that men are the courageous ones, but it is women who put up with the most and really show it.

This has every indication of cult like behavior. Anyone who denies it is nuts. The fact that this loser (to use his term) has so much power over so many people is unbelievable. And the fact that these people are well aware of his history, be it his treatment of women, his shady business dealings, his 180s on previously loyal employees, stiffing contractors on bills, etc., yet they absolutely don't care. Meanwhile, they nitpick Democrats for the smallest things. I'm still shocked that Trump isn't monetizing this more by selling Trump Kool-Aid and the like.

I have tremendous admiration for how these few Republicans have stood up. It is interesting because I could never in a million years vote for most of them - they are really far to the right. But at least they have a conscience. Who would think that that basic character trait would be lacking in so many elected officials these days. But what is ultimately scary is that all of the Trump-loyalists are not going rogue - they are fulfilling the wishes of those who elected them. They should rise up and be the adults in the room and say "to hell with being re-elected - I want to do what is right" but for some reason the power of being a representative in Washington is too important to them.

[Phredd3]

This has every indication of cult like behavior. Anyone who denies it is nuts. The fact that this loser (to use his term) has so much power over so many people is unbelievable. And the fact that these people are well aware of his history, be it his treatment of women, his shady business dealings, his 180s on previously loyal employees, stiffing contractors on bills, etc., yet they absolutely don't care. Meanwhile, they nitpick Democrats for the smallest things. I'm still shocked that Trump isn't monetizing this more by selling Trump Kool-Aid and the like.

I have tremendous admiration for how these few Republicans have stood up. It is interesting because I could never in a million years vote for most of them - they are really far to the right. But at least they have a conscience. Who would think that that basic character trait would be lacking in so many elected officials these days. But what is ultimately scary is that all of the Trump-loyalists are not going rogue - they are fulfilling the wishes of those who elected them. They should rise up and be the adults in the room and say "to hell with being re-elected - I want to do what is right" but for some reason the power of being a representative in Washington is too important to them.

The thing is, although I vehemently disagree with many (most) Republican policy positions, it is important to have an opposition. We don't all agree, and having opposition is the only way we move forward together. The trouble is, none of the Republicans are actually talking about policy. At all. To the extent policy is even mentioned, it is generally a straw man position that Democrats don't even hold, and the purpose is to hold up Democrats as the enemy. There's a certain amount of that happening on the left, as well, but it seems to have less of a grip on the left than it does on the right, where you literally have to support a lie to be a member of the club.

I still think the worst mistake this culture ever made is to effectively forbid the casual discussion of politics. I remember my dad have work colleagues over at our house and poking in fun at each other over political policy differences. But it was in jest, and in no way interfered with their friendship. Now it is considered taboo to address politics in most social settings, and people unfriend each other on social media about political differences. It is very hard to find a meaningful compromise under those conditions.

Find a Republican friend. Talk to them. Don't try to convince them, just be human to them. It will help.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

This has every indication of cult like behavior. Anyone who denies it is nuts. The fact that this loser (to use his term) has so much power over so many people is unbelievable. And the fact that these people are well aware of his history, be it his treatment of women, his shady business dealings, his 180s on previously loyal employees, stiffing contractors on bills, etc., yet they absolutely don't care. Meanwhile, they nitpick Democrats for the smallest things. I'm still shocked that Trump isn't monetizing this more by selling Trump Kool-Aid and the like.

I have tremendous admiration for how these few Republicans have stood up. It is interesting because I could never in a million years vote for most of them - they are really far to the right. But at least they have a conscience. Who would think that that basic character trait would be lacking in so many elected officials these days. But what is ultimately scary is that all of the Trump-loyalists are not going rogue - they are fulfilling the wishes of those who elected them. They should rise up and be the adults in the room and say "to hell with being re-elected - I want to do what is right" but for some reason the power of being a representative in Washington is too important to them.

The thing is, although I vehemently disagree with many (most) Republican policy positions, it is important to have an opposition. We don't all agree, and having opposition is the only way we move forward together. The trouble is, none of the Republicans are actually talking about policy. At all. To the extent policy is even mentioned, it is generally a straw man position that Democrats don't even hold, and the purpose is to hold up Democrats as the enemy. There's a certain amount of that happening on the left, as well, but it seems to have less of a grip on the left than it does on the right, where you literally have to support a lie to be a member of the club.

I still think the worst mistake this culture ever made is to effectively forbid the casual discussion of politics. I remember my dad have work colleagues over at our house and poking in fun at each other over political policy differences. But it was in jest, and in no way interfered with their friendship. Now it is considered taboo to address politics in most social settings, and people unfriend each other on social media about political differences. It is very hard to find a meaningful compromise under those conditions.

Find a Republican friend. Talk to them. Don't try to convince them, just be human to them. It will help.

Great post. Thanks. I agree that it is very hard to talk today. As you noted, many Republicans no longer stand for anything, they just stand against Democrats, and they assume all Democrats agree with our most extreme positions. There is no such thing as conversation or compromise anymore. I feel like Biden might be putting out somewhat more extreme plans than he actually wants as a starting point for negotiation, but he just gets accused of being too far to the left and the Republicans either come back with their own extreme position or just don't come back.

I have several good friends who are lifelong Republicans who I thought would be never-Trumpers but stuck with him. I have tried really hard to e-mail with one of them about politics, finding some issues where we have common ground (I am a moderate Democrat and on local issues I am to the right of a lot of my fellow New Yorkers). I admitted the flaws in the Democrat platforms on some issues and, like he always does, he started going after Democrats with Fox News/NY Post sound bites. I finally told him that I was trying to be gracious and have an intelligent conversation and I was willing to admit flaws in my party's platform, so it would be adult of him to do the same. I asked him if there was anything Donald Trump did that he had problems with. Crickets. I felt good for trying but there is only so much I can do.

[dudog]

You're both bigger men than I.

I get along with those I have to for business. Or family. Past that, I have no room in my life. They've gone too far.

[dudog]

Wow. If you haven't heard Liz Cheney's speech, you need to watch this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i-BB1gD4CM

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Wow. If you haven't heard Liz Cheney's speech, you need to watch this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i-BB1gD4CM

Well said. Sounds like a eulogy for the artist formerly known as the Republican party. You know the world is screwed up when I am actively supporting a Cheney...

[CameronBornAndBred]

Wow. If you haven't heard Liz Cheney's speech, you need to watch this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i-BB1gD4CM

Well said. Sounds like a eulogy for the artist formerly known as the Republican party. You know the world is screwed up when I am actively supporting a Cheney...

Yup. The GOP officially dies today as they vote her and reasonable thought out the window.

[Phredd3]

Wow. If you haven't heard Liz Cheney's speech, you need to watch this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i-BB1gD4CM

I heard it reported that most Republicans boycotted the chamber. I can't find a link for that, but it was on TV this morning, and the camera shots do make it look very empty. Of course, the chamber is often pretty empty, even when important speeches are delivered.

But either way, it is a done deal. Cheney is out. Stefanik meets with the caucus this evening, and could be voted in very shortly. She toes the line in the press, even if she is less conservative than Cheney on policy. But, of course, policy no longer matters.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Wow. If you haven't heard Liz Cheney's speech, you need to watch this:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... i-BB1gD4CM

Well said. Sounds like a eulogy for the artist formerly known as the Republican party. You know the world is screwed up when I am actively supporting a Cheney...

Yup. The GOP officially dies today as they vote her and reasonable thought out the window.

Hate to associate such a great song with the Republicans, but reminds me of the song American Pie.

[dudog]

Cheney officially out. NYT on the story, they booed her, did a voice vote so there was no record. What a bunch of children. (apologies to the parents out there)

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

I used to respect Rs even though I disagreed with many of their positions. Then I respected Rs who said they were still Rs but did not support Trump.
Now I have no respect at all for any of them, for this is the most anti-American thing I have ever seen in almost 60 years of life, and the most anti-American thing I have ever read about also. I feel it is worse than the Civil War. They had the excuse of being men of their time. The Republican Party has NO excuse.

Bring it on if you want to debate that.

[CameronBornAndBred]

CNN has an article out about how today is truly a defining moment for the GOP. And it's true. Usually if someone gets voted out, whatever, that's politics as usual. Today however goes much deeper than that, in that what the party has done is that they've defined themselves for at least a generation. Truth no longer matters, morality no longer matters. I know, this IS politics and people on both sides say that all the time, but this is a bit more momentous than just your regular run of the mill talking head speak.

They have embraced themselves in the idealism of Trump so much that anyone who speaks ill of it is out. I don't understand why they don't get that reasoning is a recipe for a slow demise. Sure, some folks will win their elections in their stronghold precincts with that philosophy, but as Trump proved, it's not something that a majority of this country has ever believed in, and it's why he is now in Florida instead of DC.

[Bob Green]

The GOP will survive. A few facts:

1. Biden won.
2. 74,216,154 people voted for Trump. (Not me)
3. Each candidate won 25 states

From my perspective, the sooner Rs end their affiliation with Trump the better but don’t write off the GOP prematurely due to a couple factors:

1. Biden is weak.
2. The Democratic Party will make mistakes and shoot themselves in the foot.

[dudog]

CNN has an article out about how today is truly a defining moment for the GOP. And it's true. Usually if someone gets voted out, whatever, that's politics as usual. Today however goes much deeper than that, in that what the party has done is that they've defined themselves for at least a generation. Truth no longer matters, morality no longer matters. I know, this IS politics and people on both sides say that all the time, but this is a bit more momentous than just your regular run of the mill talking head speak.

They have embraced themselves in the idealism of Trump so much that anyone who speaks ill of it is out. I don't understand why they don't get that reasoning is a recipe for a slow demise. Sure, some folks will win their elections in their stronghold precincts with that philosophy, but as Trump proved, it's not something that a majority of this country has ever believed in, and it's why he is now in Florida instead of DC.

Idealism of Trump? I believe you mis-wrote.

[dudog]

The GOP will survive. A few facts:

1. Biden won.
2. 74,216,154 people voted for Trump. (Not me)
3. Each candidate won 25 states

From my perspective, the sooner Rs end their affiliation with Trump the better but don’t write off the GOP prematurely due to a couple factors:

1. Biden is weak.
2. The Democratic Party will make mistakes and shoot themselves in the foot.

1. About 70% of Rs don't believe you thanks to their "leadership". I don't know how you don't see that as a problem for the country. Now virtually every election will be disputed, not just the Presidential. Contrast that with how Al Gore and the Ds handled the situation just 20 short years ago.
2. Not sure what this argument is, but I don't see it as a positive affirmation of anything (other than you didn't go along).
3. All states are not the same. Sure they get 2 Senators, but California (probably not the best example) is not the same as Wyoming. Biden won by many millions. The minority should be protected, but they must not rule.

1. Associated Press poll out just 2 days ago has Biden with 63% approval. That is hardly "weak". Especially in these fractured times, especially when Trump never touched 50% in any poll ever (to my knowledge).
2. OK, ya got me there. But by no means does it make what the Rs are doing acceptable.

This is about the country. Liz Cheney said it well on the House floor last night as all Rs rushed for the exits because they did not even want to listen.

[Bob Green]

I never said Trump wasn’t a problem. Trump was and continues to be a big problem. My point is Biden isn’t the answer and the Democratic Party is as bad as the GOP. The country needs a moderate centrist who can work across party lines but politics have become all about the extremes.

I voted for Biden because he is better than Trump. Being an alcoholic is better than being a heroin addict but that doesn’t mean being an alcoholic is good.

I’m looking forward to the 2024 election. Rooting for the emergence of a strong Republican in the mold of Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan. Our country desperately needs strong leadership.

Okay, I’m dreaming...

[Phredd3]

1. Associated Press poll out just 2 days ago has Biden with 63% approval. That is hardly "weak". Especially in these fractured times, especially when Trump never touched 50% in any poll ever (to my knowledge).

According to FiveThirtyEight (which deals in polling averages, not individual polls), Trump raised as high as 47.8% approval and a net positive approval rating six days after his election. After day 12 of his term, he never again achieved 46% approval and never again was a net positive. I would assume without research that he, indeed, exceeded 50% in at least one (reputable) poll at some point in that early stretch. It was unlikely (but theoretically possible) later in the term. His averages did not.

Bob, I wish you good luck in conjuring a real Republican leader that is anything other than a product of the current, truth-denying, rumor manufacturing party. I'd love to see a strong Democrat put up in opposition, also. We need real policy debate and discussion. Biden is a product of the time, and his election seems to be proving to be overly optimistic about the nature of the opposition. I'd love to see that optimism restored.

[CameronBornAndBred]

2. The Democratic Party will make mistakes and shoot themselves in the foot.

I've got no doubt about that one.

[OPK]

I never said Trump wasn’t a problem. Trump was and continues to be a big problem. My point is Biden isn’t the answer and the Democratic Party is as bad as the GOP. The country needs a moderate centrist who can work across party lines but politics have become all about the extremes.

I voted for Biden because he is better than Trump. Being an alcoholic is better than being a heroin addict but that doesn’t mean being an alcoholic is good.

I’m looking forward to the 2024 election. Rooting for the emergence of a strong Republican in the mold of Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan. Our country desperately needs strong leadership.

Okay, I’m dreaming...

I was really hoping that the fever-dream that is MAGA would have broken and that the GOP base would have returned towards a principle-based party. Very disappointed that it has not happened, and in fact the folks who have argued for principles have all been shouted down.

When someone attacked Reagan for being a Democrat most of his life, he quipped that “I did not leave the Democratic Party — the Democratic Party left me.” The same is now true for a small but significant number of Republicans who oppose Trumpism. I’m just not sure there is a home in the current GOP for that group.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

I never said Trump wasn’t a problem. Trump was and continues to be a big problem. My point is Biden isn’t the answer and the Democratic Party is as bad as the GOP. The country needs a moderate centrist who can work across party lines but politics have become all about the extremes.

I voted for Biden because he is better than Trump. Being an alcoholic is better than being a heroin addict but that doesn’t mean being an alcoholic is good.

I’m looking forward to the 2024 election. Rooting for the emergence of a strong Republican in the mold of Theodore Roosevelt, Dwight D. Eisenhower or Ronald Reagan. Our country desperately needs strong leadership.

Okay, I’m dreaming...

I was really hoping that the fever-dream that is MAGA would have broken and that the GOP base would have returned towards a principle-based party. Very disappointed that it has not happened, and in fact the folks who have argued for principles have all been shouted down.

When someone attacked Reagan for being a Democrat most of his life, he quipped that “I did not leave the Democratic Party — the Democratic Party left me.” The same is now true for a small but significant number of Republicans who oppose Trumpism. I’m just not sure there is a home in the current GOP for that group.

Exactly. I'm not sure where Bob gets his news but to accuse Biden of not trying to work across the aisle, particularly after the hell this country went through for the past four years, is completely wrong. I will agree that Biden is coming in to the left of where he campaigned. But unlike Trump, for whom every interaction was Us vs. Them, Biden is at least making an effort to restore dignity to the office of the presidency and issuing policy proposals as starting points for negotiation rather than edicts from up high. Trump refused to even engage in constructive dialogue. I'm sure his people will say "but they started it" but that clearly is not the case, and as President, it was on him to set the tone and rise up to the occasion. Biden and McConnell were lifelong Senate dealmakers. Biden is trying to do that. McConnell refuses to have an adult conversation. It should be a negotiation, not a hostage crisis.

As OPK accurately said and I have been saying, the Republicans have turned into a cult. They do not stand for anything - they just stand for obstructionism and being anti-Democrat and pro-Donald Trump. I am glad to see that a considerable number of former Republicans are appalled by this and are stepping away from what now makes up the Republican party. And as a moderate Democrat, I wish some of our more extreme members would moderate some of their views and be more welcoming to these Republicans who seem willing to try to find common ground. But unfortunately, there are very few of these sensible Republicans in congress.

[OPK]

I agree that Joe has worked to restore dignity to the White House, and I think he has done well in that respect.

As for bipartisanship, I think the perception is ahead of the reality. The key target is Joe Manchin; picking up Republicans would be nice but is not a major consideration for the current administration. That’s how it seems to me at least.