The Official "WWWD?" Thread

[windsor]

Another thing to consider is benefits. As a public employee, will you have a pension to look forward to? And how does that compare with your current job? My husband was a State employee for most of his career. Many of our friends went the higher salary, private industry route, but he retired at 50 and they are still dealing with the BS... He always says that the real payday for government employees is after you're through working.

I might ask the person you've been talking to how firm that salary is in a casual way...indicating it is less than your current salary (do not indicate by how much). That will give you a feel for what wiggle room might be there. There are ways to negotiate around salary...my son in law just took a job in LA (from Miami) and they couldn't meet his salary requirements but somehow managed to tie in a bonus after 90 days...and additional vacation and a very generous relocation package.

There are always ways around salary numbers.

The other factor is potential advanement. How many bodies are there, and how many are in positions above your head that are a fit for your interests and skills? What is the potential for other employement in that geographic area?

Benefits and pension count too of course, as do commuting distance and other perks along the way. Try to weigh the entire package. I would not put number on the application. I try to never fill in that kind of information, as it can bite you in arse.

Vibes continue

[Lavabe]

I like windsor's strategy of not putting a number in there. I have never seen it before in tenure-track positions. Is it more common to see in non-tenure-track positions? proteomic positions?

The unfortunate thing is that often such universities are much more constrained financially than you will find in the private sector. DO look and see what administration is like, both in terms of experience and in terms of what they've done recently to foster the climate you want to be in. Have they been re-investing in buildings, equipment, and/or faculty?

I'm afraid I agree with windsor on another item: if it isn't tenure-track, what other sources of employment are in the area? Do you think the position can last 10 years? Is there movement within the UT system to other campuses? How has the school and Galveston withstood the economy and hurricane?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Wise saying of the day: The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Just sayin'* ;)



* ;) I threw that in for DD's benefit. It's an inside OY running joke.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Another thing to consider is benefits. As a public employee, will you have a pension to look forward to? And how does that compare with your current job? My husband was a State employee for most of his career. Many of our friends went the higher salary, private industry route, but he retired at 50 and they are still dealing with the BS... He always says that the real payday for government employees is after you're through working.

This is a very good point, one I have first hand experience with. I worked for 30 years in the fast lane of public school administration and earned full retirement at age 52. My monthly retirement benefit has paid me and provided good medical coverage since I "went out." I don't have to be concerned with Medicare Part D because I have very good coverage for prescriptions with the State insurance program.

My sister worked 20 years as a high level State employee before leaving for about 15 years at a high level in a private sector trade association. Because she's essentially managing the funding her retirement herself for the time in the private sector, she had to work until age 61. Having the State Retirement benefits waiting for her allowed her to retire this early... her health insurance is now provided through the State and will become her medi gap and prescription coverage when she goes on Medicare in a few years. Having this coverage is huge in view of the problems of reviewing annually and perhaps changing annually as many people do once on Medicare. She also has the monthly pay from the retirement fund (reduced, not full retirement which requires 30 years). This is steady income not fluctuating like private sources may.

One important note regarding employment with the State is that you will not likely be able to opt in and opt at of the benefits once in retirement. Once you begin to accrue time in the State system, you'll need to stick with it to benefit best. Once vested, if you leave you'll need to leave your retirement funds in the retirement system in order to benefit later. All this is how it works in NC. Texas has its own system which seems to be pretty good.... at least that's what I hear from friends who retired from Texas schools and universities.

Another note about Texas: years ago Texas allowed State employees to opt out of Social Security contributions while they were State employees. This increased their pay at the time, but removed/reduced a source of income in retirement. I would want to know the current situation regarding contributions to Social Security, what alternatives there are to paying into Social Security and weight that in my decision.... short term and long term.

I think one of the biggest mistakes one can make is not factoring in funding of retirement in favor of more money today. Postponing funding of retirement may seem harmless at the time, but the day will come will when it's the most important factor in determining what your life will be like after age fifty or so.

[devildeac]

Wise saying of the day: The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Just sayin'* ;)



* ;) I threw that in for DD's benefit. It's an inside OY running joke.

-9.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Wise saying of the day: The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Just sayin'* ;)



* ;) I threw that in for DD's benefit. It's an inside OY running joke.

-9.

Yup, that's the going rate for sayin' "just sayin' "

[ArkieDukie]

Wise saying of the day: The grass always looks greener on the other side of the fence. Just sayin'* ;)



* ;) I threw that in for DD's benefit. It's an inside OY running joke.

That is very true. I need to be careful to NOT accept the first job offer just to get the heck out of Dodge.

[ArkieDukie]

Another thing to consider is benefits. As a public employee, will you have a pension to look forward to? And how does that compare with your current job? My husband was a State employee for most of his career. Many of our friends went the higher salary, private industry route, but he retired at 50 and they are still dealing with the BS... He always says that the real payday for government employees is after you're through working.

This is a very good point, one I have first hand experience with. I worked for 30 years in the fast lane of public school administration and earned full retirement at age 52. My monthly retirement benefit has paid me and provided good medical coverage since I "went out." I don't have to be concerned with Medicare Part D because I have very good coverage for prescriptions with the State insurance program.

My sister worked 20 years as a high level State employee before leaving for about 15 years at a high level in a private sector trade association. Because she's essentially managing the funding her retirement herself for the time in the private sector, she had to work until age 61. Having the State Retirement benefits waiting for her allowed her to retire this early... her health insurance is now provided through the State and will become her medi gap and prescription coverage when she goes on Medicare in a few years. Having this coverage is huge in view of the problems of reviewing annually and perhaps changing annually as many people do once on Medicare. She also has the monthly pay from the retirement fund (reduced, not full retirement which requires 30 years). This is steady income not fluctuating like private sources may.

One important note regarding employment with the State is that you will not likely be able to opt in and opt at of the benefits once in retirement. Once you begin to accrue time in the State system, you'll need to stick with it to benefit best. Once vested, if you leave you'll need to leave your retirement funds in the retirement system in order to benefit later. All this is how it works in NC. Texas has its own system which seems to be pretty good.... at least that's what I hear from friends who retired from Texas schools and universities.

Another note about Texas: years ago Texas allowed State employees to opt out of Social Security contributions while they were State employees. This increased their pay at the time, but removed/reduced a source of income in retirement. I would want to know the current situation regarding contributions to Social Security, what alternatives there are to paying into Social Security and weight that in my decision.... short term and long term.

I think one of the biggest mistakes one can make is not factoring in funding of retirement in favor of more money today. Postponing funding of retirement may seem harmless at the time, but the day will come will when it's the most important factor in determining what your life will be like after age fifty or so.

Thanks, shereec and DitBD. Definitely worth considering. I do always consider retirement, insurance, etc, so it will be interesting to see how this changes the picture.

[ArkieDukie]

Okay, another work-related question. Those of you following my current saga know that my boss does not include me in any meetings related to work assignments, and I receive work assignments via e-mail or Outlook task (when I get them). I've been following the passive-aggressive route of not doing anything that the boss doesn't tell me to do, but I'm starting to think this is not the best strategy. Although it gripes me no end to seek out my work assignments, I think this may be the best strategy. I think it's time for me to start establishing a paper trail via e-mail. The best defense is a good offense, right? So, here's the plan: I'm going to start being more regular about sending e-mail updates to PHB. They will go out daily. In addition, I will include questions for the boss that require an answer. These will be related to things I'm supposed to be doing but can't do because PHB hasn't given me all the necessary information. If I've learned anything from windsor over the last several months, a lack of response from the boss would make him the a$$hole. If I don't complete work assignments because I haven't been given all the details, PHB can spin this into me being the a$$hole. Is this an accurate assessment? What do you think of this strategy?

As an aside, my original plan was to start showing up in his office with a list of questions. Upon further reflection, though, I think e-mail may be the better way to go. Do you agree?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I like the idea of you creating work for PHB, because it creates work for him. It's good for you to have a paper trail, but since now you're no longer involved/dealing with the grant project and paper being published and AI, who are you keeping the paper trail for? Who would you ever take it to as a fall back? You going to sue him? He going to sue you? Someone going to fire you for not doing your job and you need documentation to prove you were? What's the point of the paper trail? I ask this question both so YOU know, and so we know

[Turk]

Arkie, I admire the fact you don't have a lazy bone in your body and like keeping busy. However, I'm not on board with the daily email strategy. Speaking personally, I don't ever want to send 'em, and I don't ever want to have to read 'em. That's a good way to get on the a$$hole / PITA list. Your intent is admirable, so try it weekly - let's say Monday. "Here's what's on my plate - here's what I'm gonna get done, and here's what else I'm gonna get done as soon as you can answer X Y Z". I wouldn't go more than Monday - Thurs, or no more frequent than M-W-F at the most.

BTW, how is your Perl scripting coming along? Maybe you can hint and say "You know, a lot of this is manual tedious gruntwork. I'm thinking about how to do this more efficiently..."

[ArkieDukie]

I like the idea of you creating work for PHB, because it creates work for him. It's good for you to have a paper trail, but since now you're no longer involved/dealing with the grant project and paper being published and AI, who are you keeping the paper trail for? Who would you ever take it to as a fall back? You going to sue him? He going to sue you? Someone going to fire you for not doing your job and you need documentation to prove you were? What's the point of the paper trail? I ask this question both so YOU know, and so we know

To quote the prophet Janet Jackson, "This is a story about control. My control." Up to this point, I feel that I've allowed PHB to control the situation with regard to my work assignments (or lack thereof). This is my way of putting myself in control. If he chooses to not play along by not responding, well, he's the asshole. Besides, I know how PHB operates. He could very well be generating a paper trail with the ultimate goal of terminating my services. If he's playing that game, a paper trail on my side could make things far more difficult for him. In other words, CYA.

I'm also going to start documenting the meetings that PHB has with other lab personnel to discuss work assignments. If I'm lucky and don't need this documentation to defend myself, I do plan to pass along my experiences to the HR office upon my departure. I still regret the fact that I didn't turn in my exit interview for my last job, and I'm not going to make that mistake again. I can make some serious noise on my way out the door, if I so desire.

There's another issue at play, too. I found out on Friday that the boss has turned over a particular resource to NuBarbie. The problem is that I've been asking when it would be ready to use for several months now (it's software - we've been waiting for a new server for it b/c he gave the old one to NuBarbie to use for her data analysis). Several of my projects are stalled because I need the particular resource that he's given to NB for one project. I want to get him to say in writing that it's not available because it's devoted exclusively to her project. You can call this the straw that broke the camel's back. (I found out he turned it over to her when she was asking a coworker questions about how to use the software. I've had more training on the software than the person she was asking.)

[ArkieDukie]

Arkie, I admire the fact you don't have a lazy bone in your body and like keeping busy. However, I'm not on board with the daily email strategy. Speaking personally, I don't ever want to send 'em, and I don't ever want to have to read 'em. That's a good way to get on the a$$hole / PITA list. Your intent is admirable, so try it weekly - let's say Monday. "Here's what's on my plate - here's what I'm gonna get done, and here's what else I'm gonna get done as soon as you can answer X Y Z". I wouldn't go more than Monday - Thurs, or no more frequent than M-W-F at the most.

BTW, how is your Perl scripting coming along? Maybe you can hint and say "You know, a lot of this is manual tedious gruntwork. I'm thinking about how to do this more efficiently..."

That's not a bad idea. In fact, I was thinking about sending out a message first thing Monday morning to outline the tasks on my plate for the week. This will allow me to nicely ask about the task I learned about second-hand last week but did not receive additional details on. It will also allow me to issue a polite reminder about the stalled projects (see preceding note), which I will do in a way that does not reveal my knowledge of the situation.

I'm stalled on perl at the moment, but i'm going to get back on it this week. Vacation, followed by catching up from being on vacation, but that on hold for a short time. I don't plan on telling PHB that I'm learning perl until I get something that actually works - if then.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I like the idea of you creating work for PHB, because it creates work for him. It's good for you to have a paper trail, but since now you're no longer involved/dealing with the grant project and paper being published and AI, who are you keeping the paper trail for? Who would you ever take it to as a fall back? You going to sue him? He going to sue you? Someone going to fire you for not doing your job and you need documentation to prove you were? What's the point of the paper trail? I ask this question both so YOU know, and so we know

To quote the prophet Janet Jackson, "This is a story about control. My control." Up to this point, I feel that I've allowed PHB to control the situation with regard to my work assignments (or lack thereof). This is my way of putting myself in control. If he chooses to not play along by not responding, well, he's the asshole. Besides, I know how PHB operates. He could very well be generating a paper trail with the ultimate goal of terminating my services. If he's playing that game, a paper trail on my side could make things far more difficult for him. In other words, CYA.

I'm also going to start documenting the meetings that PHB has with other lab personnel to discuss work assignments. If I'm lucky and don't need this documentation to defend myself, I do plan to pass along my experiences to the HR office upon my departure. I still regret the fact that I didn't turn in my exit interview for my last job, and I'm not going to make that mistake again. I can make some serious noise on my way out the door, if I so desire.

There's another issue at play, too. I found out on Friday that the boss has turned over a particular resource to NuBarbie. The problem is that I've been asking when it would be ready to use for several months now (it's software - we've been waiting for a new server for it b/c he gave the old one to NuBarbie to use for her data analysis). Several of my projects are stalled because I need the particular resource that he's given to NB for one project. I want to get him to say in writing that it's not available because it's devoted exclusively to her project. You can call this the straw that broke the camel's back. (I found out he turned it over to her when she was asking a coworker questions about how to use the software. I've had more training on the software than the person she was asking.)

See! You already had these answers figured out and have good reasons for your little project! As to Turk's comments, while valid, PHB deserves a big PITA!

[windsor]

Regular e-mail status on doing/done and can't do gets two thumbs up. I am with Turk...I wouldn't do it daily but two or three times a week. It provides the doucmented paper trail...and I would organize it with things you did since the last e-mail first, status on work in progress,things you are going to do (with completion dates) and things you can't do because of lack of resources/information. If the tasks that lack information have due dates, incude the date you must have the info by in order to complete them timely.

[ArkieDukie]

Regular e-mail status on doing/done and can't do gets two thumbs up. I am with Turk...I wouldn't do it daily but two or three times a week. It provides the doucmented paper trail...and I would organize it with things you did since the last e-mail first, status on work in progress,things you are going to do (with completion dates) and things you can't do because of lack of resources/information. If the tasks that lack information have due dates, incude the date you must have the info by in order to complete them timely.

I sent the e-mail first thing this morning, blind copied to my home address. I opened the message with a request to attend a local symposium on Thursday, and then listed all projects I'm currently working on. I also included projects for which I'm in a holding pattern for whatever reason - waiting for input from him, waiting for software availability, etc. I received a response shortly after sending the message, giving me permission to attend the meeting on Thursday. Not a word about the projects, so I don't know any more detail than I did before sending the message.

Now for a humorous follow-up: for one of the projects detailed in my message, the boss called the investigator in to get detail on sample preparation. I gave him the details he needed in 2 different e-mails. What's really annoying is that the lab manager (my office mate, copied on one of the e-mail messages) also claimed to not know sample prep details. He then said he didn't read my message because it didn't affect him. As I see it, there are two problems here. First, if either of them had bothered to read the detailed sample prep message I sent out, they would've had the answer to their question. Second, if I had been in the meeting, I could've given them the necessary information. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this situation makes someone look bad, and I'm not that person.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Regular e-mail status on doing/done and can't do gets two thumbs up. I am with Turk...I wouldn't do it daily but two or three times a week. It provides the doucmented paper trail...and I would organize it with things you did since the last e-mail first, status on work in progress,things you are going to do (with completion dates) and things you can't do because of lack of resources/information. If the tasks that lack information have due dates, incude the date you must have the info by in order to complete them timely.

I sent the e-mail first thing this morning, blind copied to my home address. I opened the message with a request to attend a local symposium on Thursday, and then listed all projects I'm currently working on. I also included projects for which I'm in a holding pattern for whatever reason - waiting for input from him, waiting for software availability, etc. I received a response shortly after sending the message, giving me permission to attend the meeting on Thursday. Not a word about the projects, so I don't know any more detail than I did before sending the message.

Now for a humorous follow-up: for one of the projects detailed in my message, the boss called the investigator in to get detail on sample preparation. I gave him the details he needed in 2 different e-mails. What's really annoying is that the lab manager (my office mate, copied on one of the e-mail messages) also claimed to not know sample prep details. He then said he didn't read my message because it didn't affect him. As I see it, there are two problems here. First, if either of them had bothered to read the detailed sample prep message I sent out, they would've had the answer to their question. Second, if I had been in the meeting, I could've given them the necessary information. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: this situation makes someone look bad, and I'm not that person.

Dumbshit is as dumbshit does! I can say that. You can't. So I'm saying for you!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

As Ron White says, "You can't fix stupid."

[ArkieDukie]

Day 2, and no word from PHB on my questions relating to current projects.

Humorous anecdote #2: NuBarbie came into the office yesterday to ask my colleague questions (again, stuff that I'm more likely to know than he is). He told her she should ask me or PHB. She didn't say anything to me, so I assume she asked PHB. Funny thing is, the issue she was having trouble with is something that PHB probably wouldn't know either. So, after much debate, I sent a very nice e-mail (copying my colleague and PHB) with a suggestion for dealing with her current dilemma. My logic on copying PHB and my colleague is that they would need to know this information, too - which they do.

This morning, I received a response from NuBarbie; she copied EVERYONE IN THE LAB. The basic purpose of the e-mail was a blatant attempt to make me look stupid. The effect was the opposite; IMO; it revealed that she doesn't know what the hell she's doing. I sent a nice, polite response that clarified my earlier message, copying everyone, and apologized for the confusion. My read of the situation here is that I managed to NOT be the asshole. NuBarbie, not so much. She did back track and thank me for the helpful advice, but not after making herself look like a total buffoon.

For those of you keeping score, this is the second time I've tried to help her with a problem and the second time she's responded by trying to make me look bad. As I figure it, I've got 2 options: I can continue to offer her helpful advice, or I can leave her to struggle on her own. I believe that the Windsor Who's the Asshole Test (WWTAT, or WTA for short) would show that the former option is the better one. I keep a civil tone and provide helpful information, which makes me look good. If NB continues to respond as she has up to this point (we're at least 2/2 and counting), she fails the asshole test miserably. If I don't pass along helpful information for the good of the order, I'm the asshole. Does this seem reasonable? Potential problem: what is PHB's perception of WTA?

I must say, making NuBarbie fail the official WWTAT is a fun and amusing pastime. Does that make me fail the WWTAT? My vote is no, because the option for how to respond is up to her. However, I'm baiting her, which makes me a bit of an asshole.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I fear that you are being so nice (and cooperative), and most people are so naive/busy/minding their own business, that they don't realize that NB is being an/the asshole.