an interesting dilemma...

[lawgrad91]

Can I borrow a dog, Windsor?

Merlin's attitude is mostly formed by his Lab forbears. When I lived in Stuart, he and I went to the nursing home every other week, at the suggestion of his vet, to visit the people there. He even liked the poor Alzheimer's lady who tried to ride him.

Ironicly Wizard spends time visiting a locked memory unit at the nursing home my mother in law was in...tervurens in addition to working 300-400 head of stock on the open range in Belgium were flock guardians as well - gentle with the stock, kill the coyote....emasculate AD's boss....

I loan him out when there is a need....

Good dog!

[ArkieDukie]

Another exciting installment of "As the Manuscript Turns"

I stayed home from work today (sore throat, cold bug), but things must have been hopping in my absence. As you may recall, I sent a message late yesterday afternoon to my boss and Pushy PI in which I detailed the real reasons I pulled my name from the original manuscript and don't want my name on the current version. I then sent a similar message, along with all documentation, to the Academic Integrity office. Crickets, until about 5 minutes ago, when I received a joint e-mail message from my boss and Pushy PI. The contents were quite interesting. The upshot was, "Wow. You read this manuscript really closely and in detail. Please share any further suggestions or concerns that you might have. We will address them and correct as necessary." That's not the exact wording, but it captures the gist of the message. So, wow. Just. Wow.

There are multiple scenarios that might explain this newest development:
1. The Academic Integrity office works far more quickly that I ever imagined.
2. Neither Pushy PI nor my boss read the manuscript closely enough, and The Minion slipped some things past them.
3. The Minion flat-out lied to my boss and Pushy PI about several key points, and I called her on them. This would reveal that neither of them knew the project well enough to call The Minion out on her lies. This also supports a theory I've held all along: The Minion had them snowed and they didn't recognize how inherently dishonest she is.
4. They knew perfectly well what was going on all along, and they seriously underestimated me. This would make the e-mail a CYA move.

Regardless, I need to forward their message to Academic Integrity, I think. If the points of concern aren't addressed before publication, Santa Claus will be watching them. Otherwise, unless AI is behind the most recent development, I think this went a bit more smoothly than I ever thought it would.

So, comments? Any other speculation? I'd love to hear it!

[DukieInKansas]

Another exciting installment of "As the Manuscript Turns"

I stayed home from work today (sore throat, cold bug), but things must have been hopping in my absence. As you may recall, I sent a message late yesterday afternoon to my boss and Pushy PI in which I detailed the real reasons I pulled my name from the original manuscript and don't want my name on the current version. I then sent a similar message, along with all documentation, to the Academic Integrity office. Crickets, until about 5 minutes ago, when I received a joint e-mail message from my boss and Pushy PI. The contents were quite interesting. The upshot was, "Wow. You read this manuscript really closely and in detail. Please share any further suggestions or concerns that you might have. We will address them and correct as necessary." That's not the exact wording, but it captures the gist of the message. So, wow. Just. Wow.

There are multiple scenarios that might explain this newest development:
1. The Academic Integrity office works far more quickly that I ever imagined.
2. Neither Pushy PI nor my boss read the manuscript closely enough, and The Minion slipped some things past them.
3. The Minion flat-out lied to my boss and Pushy PI about several key points, and I called her on them. This would reveal that neither of them knew the project well enough to call The Minion out on her lies. This also supports a theory I've held all along: The Minion had them snowed and they didn't recognize how inherently dishonest she is.
4. They knew perfectly well what was going on all along, and they seriously underestimated me. This would make the e-mail a CYA move.

Regardless, I need to forward their message to Academic Integrity, I think. If the points of concern aren't addressed before publication, Santa Claus will be watching them. Otherwise, unless AI is behind the most recent development, I think this went a bit more smoothly than I ever thought it would.

So, comments? Any other speculation? I'd love to hear it!

I'm thinking a CYA email. They want to appear to be taking anything you say seriously just in case you report it to anyone. Since you have addressed some issues with PI before that he said he would address and didn't, I'm not convinced they will address the issues this time, either.
If they make the corrections, good for them. If they don't, even more for info for AI.

[Lavabe]

Another exciting installment of "As the Manuscript Turns"

I stayed home from work today (sore throat, cold bug), but things must have been hopping in my absence. As you may recall, I sent a message late yesterday afternoon to my boss and Pushy PI in which I detailed the real reasons I pulled my name from the original manuscript and don't want my name on the current version. I then sent a similar message, along with all documentation, to the Academic Integrity office. Crickets, until about 5 minutes ago, when I received a joint e-mail message from my boss and Pushy PI. The contents were quite interesting. The upshot was, "Wow. You read this manuscript really closely and in detail. Please share any further suggestions or concerns that you might have. We will address them and correct as necessary." That's not the exact wording, but it captures the gist of the message. So, wow. Just. Wow.

There are multiple scenarios that might explain this newest development:
1. The Academic Integrity office works far more quickly that I ever imagined.
2. Neither Pushy PI nor my boss read the manuscript closely enough, and The Minion slipped some things past them.
3. The Minion flat-out lied to my boss and Pushy PI about several key points, and I called her on them. This would reveal that neither of them knew the project well enough to call The Minion out on her lies. This also supports a theory I've held all along: The Minion had them snowed and they didn't recognize how inherently dishonest she is.
4. They knew perfectly well what was going on all along, and they seriously underestimated me. This would make the e-mail a CYA move.

Regardless, I need to forward their message to Academic Integrity, I think. If the points of concern aren't addressed before publication, Santa Claus will be watching them. Otherwise, unless AI is behind the most recent development, I think this went a bit more smoothly than I ever thought it would.

So, comments? Any other speculation? I'd love to hear it!

A combination of things happened:
1) AI DOES work quickly. A simple email from AI will sound like a loud bullhorn to even the most pompous people. If AI comes around, you had better listen. This is falling well into what I suggested would happen... the threat of AI could change the manuscript.
2) In response to a simple email from AI, they are playing CYA. Having said that...
3) It's clear to me that PPI has been playing CYA more than the others.
4) Congratulations on finally getting an afterhours email about a manuscript from Bossman. Too little, too late.
5) I think your point #3 makes sense. Point #2 applies to your boss. PPI read it, but assumed a lot of things.
Will be traveling to St. Louis tomorrow. Can't wait to see you Arkie!
Hold your ground Arkie. You are NOT the asshole. If you'd like, I can bring my Aussie with me, but she's nothing like windsor's Tervuren. ;)

[DevilAlumna]

My vote is that the AI office worked fast.

It doesn't take a long time for someone to send out an email to PPI and/or boss, saying - "We've gotten a report that your latest research/manuscript may have issues, we'd like to set up a meeting with you to discuss."

PPI and boss are probably (tho this is giving them some likely undeserved credit) were able to put 2 and 2 together and realize, "Sh*t, AD's pretty pissed/serious and willing to do something about it," and hence the email to you.

I'd give yourself until Monday to respond. Let the weekend (and chirping of crickets) intervene.

[ArkieDukie]

Minor correction: I believe yesterday's message went only to Pushy PI. He obviously brought my boss into the loop. I did mention two of the three issues repeatedly when I was still involved in the meetings. I also added these comments to an earlier version of the paper. And I detailed them in an email to my boss when the first draft went out. Yeah, all signs point to CYA.

Another theory: what are the odds that my boss's boss (or maybe a couple of steps higher up on the food chain), who is over AI, was pulled in when he saw who the players were? I can envision a scenario where Big Wheel Power Player calls in my boss and Pushy PI and tells them to fix the problem. Remember, it's all about politics.

[Lavabe]

Minor correction: I believe yesterday's message went only to Pushy PI. He obviously brought my boss into the loop. I did mention two of the three issues repeatedly when I was still involved in the meetings. I also added these comments to an earlier version of the paper. And I detailed them in an email to my boss when the first draft went out. Yeah, all signs point to CYA.

Another theory: what are the odds that my boss's boss (or maybe a couple of steps higher up on the food chain), who is over AI, was pulled in when he saw who the players were? I can envision a scenario where Big Wheel Power Player calls in my boss and Pushy PI and tells them to fix the problem. Remember, it's all about politics.

No. IIRC in most places I've been, AI does NOT reveal things to superiors THIS early in the process. They respond directly. They must be in the factfinding phase.

[ArkieDukie]

Minor correction: I believe yesterday's message went only to Pushy PI. He obviously brought my boss into the loop. I did mention two of the three issues repeatedly when I was still involved in the meetings. I also added these comments to an earlier version of the paper. And I detailed them in an email to my boss when the first draft went out. Yeah, all signs point to CYA.

Another theory: what are the odds that my boss's boss (or maybe a couple of steps higher up on the food chain), who is over AI, was pulled in when he saw who the players were? I can envision a scenario where Big Wheel Power Player calls in my boss and Pushy PI and tells them to fix the problem. Remember, it's all about politics.

No. IIRC in most places I've been, AI does NOT reveal things to superiors THIS early in the process. They respond directly. They must be in the factfinding phase.

I would've guessed fact-finding phase, based upon the email I received from AI this afternoon. My understanding was that those involved would not be contacted unless the people in the AI office found just cause. That must mean that they looked through everything today and decided to proceed. If that's the case, maybe PPI, The Minion, and my boss were also notified late this afternoon. Hence the 9:30 pm response from my boss and Pushy PI. That timeline works.

[windsor]

I am somewhat handicapped by my lack of knowledge in the academic/research world. However I will postulate that the response is a combination of a couple things.

1) PPI did NOT thoroughly read the manuscript - until you had to muddy the water with the facts that is
2) PPI realized that if you are correct there could be an embrassing fallout from submitting the manuscript as is
3) PPI wants to make sure that if it hits the fan the big chunks land elsewhere
4) PPI needs a fall guy (or gal) if indeed this goes bad. The exclusion of the Minion on recent e-mails tells me that is where the target is getting painted.
5)The nature of your recent e-mails have made it clear that you will 'not go gentlle into that good night'

I don't know how fast AI can act, but I think if the question is raised about a manuscript on the brink of submission they would have to move quickly...if it is accepted for publication that bell is hard to unring.


Stay the course - stick to the facts - keep the 'who is the asshole' in mind at all times....and I would have a prepared political way to say "I raised the concerns in meeting months ago, and would have continued to raise them had I not been excluded from those meetings" Someone somewhere is going to whine about 'why now' ....

[ArkieDukie]

I am somewhat handicapped by my lack of knowledge in the academic/research world. However I will postulate that the response is a combination of a couple things.

1) PPI did NOT thoroughly read the manuscript - until you had to muddy the water with the facts that is
2) PPI realized that if you are correct there could be an embrassing fallout from submitting the manuscript as is
3) PPI wants to make sure that if it hits the fan the big chunks land elsewhere
4) PPI needs a fall guy (or gal) if indeed this goes bad. The exclusion of the Minion on recent e-mails tells me that is where the target is getting painted.
5)The nature of your recent e-mails have made it clear that you will 'not go gentlle into that good night'

I don't know how fast AI can act, but I think if the question is raised about a manuscript on the brink of submission they would have to move quickly...if it is accepted for publication that bell is hard to unring.


Stay the course - stick to the facts - keep the 'who is the asshole' in mind at all times....and I would have a prepared political way to say "I raised the concerns in meeting months ago, and would have continued to raise them had I not been excluded from those meetings" Someone somewhere is going to whine about 'why now' ....

Oh, no; it's better than that. They had already submitted the manuscript, and it could very well be close to accept/reject decision time. I didn't receive a copy until after it went in. The cover letter, addressed to the editor of the journal, was part of the packet that I submitted to the Research Integrity office (the correct term - I misspoke up to this point). That would make things even more critical - in review, not yet accepted, and it's a resubmission.

Official Research Integrity office policy is that it is ultimately the PI who is responsible, regardless of who did the work. With that being said, it could very well be that The Minion is in HUGE trouble (points 3 and 4 above). IMO she deserves it: she has lied repeatedly and often and has, in fact, falsified data. If 1 and 2 are true, then it's PPI's fault for trusting The Minion. Bet that won't happen again.

Also a part of my political statement for them will be the fact that I did it now rather than later, knowing there would be fallout for me. The fallout for them would've been far worse if I'd waited until after it was accepted for publication.

[windsor]

The PI may be ultimatley responsible by policy but somehow in the real world I bet it doesn't always work out that way.

It sounds like the minion neck will be in the noose...and I have no doubt she will do everything human possible to try to get someone else to look like the bad guy....

Me thinks there is a big ol' giant Shit Storm a comin'

[ArkieDukie]

The PI may be ultimatley responsible by policy but somehow in the real world I bet it doesn't always work out that way.

It sounds like the minion neck will be in the noose...and I have no doubt she will do everything human possible to try to get someone else to look like the bad guy....

Me thinks there is a big ol' giant Shit Storm a comin'

Oh, The Minion did that repeatedly during preparation of the first draft of the manuscript. Remember I was taken off the project after I called her on an error she made in the calculations; she said I told her to do it that way. I think that, since I was taken off the project and was nowhere near this particular draft, it's all on her. I can also gently remind my boss that I sent him my list of concerns after I removed my name from the first draft (just before it was submitted). I know he read the list, because one of the issues I raised was addressed in the newest version of the manuscript.

More speculation on the sequence of events: remember the infamous disputed spectrum? There's a note on part of the supplemental data (but not on the spectrum itself) saying that it was not included. The figure in the manuscript that showed sequence coverage included some information from the newly omitted spectrum. I pointed it out to PPI; he said I was wrong and said the information came from another spectrum. The Minion had been copied up to this point; I think she told PPI in a message not copied to me that I was wrong and lied about where the information came from. I responded with facts; PPI sent a mea culpa several hours later. Now, why do I think PPI got input from The Minion before responding? The answer is simple: I'm not so sure he understands the analysis well enough to have answered the question on his own, and neither he nor my boss were going to check this for themselves. They asked her to do it. This might have been the first dent in The Minion's apparent Shield of Invincibility. I'm sure she tried to blame me, though. Also, I raised a second point after that and got lots of smoke in response. The answer was that it was correct in the figure legend. Problem is, it WASN'T correct in the text of the paper itself, and I pointed that out. Sloppy, sloppy. Another chink in The Minion's Shield of Invincibility, and it's interesting to note that she was not copied on this particular message. Then I pulled out the big guns and really got their attention. Unless she's been BCC'd, she's out of the loop now.

Sadly, Research Assistant Professor Minion may have just hit a career stumbling block, and it's her own fault. I'd say my boss and PPI are also to blame in that they've enabled her behavior up to this point. I may have been the one to point it out, but ultimately she's the one that (IMO) falsified data and made them look bad to RI. Yeah, they can be mad at me for turning them in, but how does that make them look? As you like to say, windsor, who's the asshole?

[windsor]

Sadly, Research Assistant Professor Minion may have just hit a career stumbling block, and it's her own fault. I'd say my boss and PPI are also to blame in that they've enabled her behavior up to this point. I may have been the one to point it out, but ultimately she's the one that (IMO) falsified data and made them look bad to RI. Yeah, they can be mad at me for turning them in, but how does that make them look? As you like to say, windsor, who's the asshole?

Drawing your curve and then plotting your 'data' points as an undergrad in Bonkestry is one thing ( ).
Doing it at her level is inexcusable. Period. Were I in charge I would show her the door. If someone does that once, they will do it againand reputable research can not occur under that cloud. Period. ahhhhhhhhh SEEEEEEE YA Minion.

[Lavabe]

I am somewhat handicapped by my lack of knowledge in the academic/research world. However I will postulate that the response is a combination of a couple things.

1) PPI did NOT thoroughly read the manuscript - until you had to muddy the water with the facts that is
2) PPI realized that if you are correct there could be an embrassing fallout from submitting the manuscript as is
3) PPI wants to make sure that if it hits the fan the big chunks land elsewhere
4) PPI needs a fall guy (or gal) if indeed this goes bad. The exclusion of the Minion on recent e-mails tells me that is where the target is getting painted.
5)The nature of your recent e-mails have made it clear that you will 'not go gentlle into that good night'

I don't know how fast AI can act, but I think if the question is raised about a manuscript on the brink of submission they would have to move quickly...if it is accepted for publication that bell is hard to unring.

You are NOT handicapped. You have been ON TARGET throughout this thread.
AI can act FAST!!

[ArkieDukie]

I am somewhat handicapped by my lack of knowledge in the academic/research world. However I will postulate that the response is a combination of a couple things.

1) PPI did NOT thoroughly read the manuscript - until you had to muddy the water with the facts that is
2) PPI realized that if you are correct there could be an embrassing fallout from submitting the manuscript as is
3) PPI wants to make sure that if it hits the fan the big chunks land elsewhere
4) PPI needs a fall guy (or gal) if indeed this goes bad. The exclusion of the Minion on recent e-mails tells me that is where the target is getting painted.
5)The nature of your recent e-mails have made it clear that you will 'not go gentlle into that good night'

I don't know how fast AI can act, but I think if the question is raised about a manuscript on the brink of submission they would have to move quickly...if it is accepted for publication that bell is hard to unring.

You are NOT handicapped. You have been ON TARGET throughout this thread.
AI can act FAST!!

I'll second Lavabe on this point, windsor - at least with regard to your having been on target throughout this entire process. This is my first experience in dealing with the Research Integrity office, so I wasn't sure how quickly they would move.

[windsor]

Fortunately people are people no matter what their work environment and Minions exist everywhere..as do PPI...they just have different names. We do not, in the business universe have a RI office although we do have 'compliance offices' in health care but they tend to move with the speed of a turtle through a sea of peanut butter.

[ArkieDukie]

Fortunately people are people no matter what their work environment and Minions exist everywhere..as do PPI...they just have different names. We do not, in the business universe have a RI office although we do have 'compliance offices' in health care but they tend to move with the speed of a turtle through a sea of peanut butter.

I've said that as well, windsor. In fact, I've told my boss that I worked with (Person X) before, but they had a different name, and I didn't like them then, either. It's the truth. In a lot of ways, The Minion is a lot like Supervisor Barbie, and Pushy PI is a whole lot like my old boss. In that instance, I told my old boss what SB was doing and he didn't believe me. In fact, he actively protected her, and they both made my work life difficult. I'm still kicking myself for not returning the exit interview in which I told HR exactly what the two of them had been up to. In a way, it feels like this entire situation has been a do-over for me.

(As an aside, I didn't return the exit interview because I thought my former PHB would not list me as a coauthor on the research projects in which I had been involved. Guess what? PHB left me off the paper for a project that I outlined. Supervisor Barbie was listed as a coauthor instead.)

Are any of you familiar with the song "High School Never Ends", by Bowling for Soup? Lavabe, if you haven't heard it before, it's on my iPod. Remind me and I'll play it for you this weekend when we visit Ted Drewes. The subject of the song is basically the first sentence in windsor's post.

[ArkieDukie]

http://youtu.be/jrxI_euTX4A
Here's the video for "High School Never Ends." I tried to embed the video, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. The YouTube link will have to do.

[ArkieDukie]

The most recent development: I just received a response from the Research Integrity office. Based upon the email I forwarded, they feel that PPI is addressing my concerns and there's no need for them to get involved at this time. Does this mean that they really hadn't entered the picture yet?

If so, this could mean a few things:
1. Maybe PPI was telling the truth when he told me he wanted it to be right. You may recall that, when he met with me several weeks ago, he asked me to send him a list of my concerns. If this is the case, and 2 is true, then he must have been appalled when he read my list of concerns and looked back at the manuscript.
2. If 1 is right, then this would indicate that my boss and PPI hadn't read the manuscript very closely AT ALL and took The Minion's word over mine regarding the contents. BIG mistake. Both of them are quite busy, so this is somewhat plausible. Even then, I told my boss about these issues before the first draft went out. Maybe I violated the "Who's the asshole" rule in their eyes, and they felt that I was being "mean" to the Minion?
3. They were perfectly aware of what The Minion was doing and were complicit, and I called their bluff.
4. If I and 2 are true, The Minion is in BIG trouble. No idea what it means for me.

If RI hadn't entered the picture yet on PPI's end, how likely is 3? Thoughts? Comments? It will be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone on the outside of this situation.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

The most recent development: I just received a response from the Research Integrity office. Based upon the email I forwarded, they feel that PPI is addressing my concerns and there's no need for them to get involved at this time.
Thoughts? Comments? It will be interesting to hear the thoughts of someone on the outside of this situation.

1. You're about to become PPI's best friend and most trusted associate of all time.
-or-
2. You're up shit's creek without a paddle.

I hope it's #1.