God?

[Shammrog]

So, which one do I vote for?

(Then I can put my shirt back on.)

[cl15876]

So, which one do I vote for?

(Then I can put my shirt back on.)

Sham - I frankly was SHOCKED to not see you on the ladies POLE of choices!!!! I think BD might have voted for you! Guess that would require you to put your pants back on also!!!!

[Shammrog]

So, which one do I vote for?

(Then I can put my shirt back on.)

Sham - I frankly was SHOCKED to not see you on the ladies POLE of choices!!!! I think BD might have voted for you! Guess that would require you to put your pants back on also!!!!

Yes. Yes it would have.

[Miles]

I have a problem with the whole "atheist" thing. I mean, aren't all atheists really agnostic too? I mean, Windsor, I get it. But if God actually appeared to you and you had a conversation and he showed you miracles, and he gave you some kind of proof (DNA sample you found a way to test and it came back "God"), you STILL wouldn't believe? That takes some serious determination. ;)

Could an atheist then ask you: If God never appeared to you, never had a conversation with you, and never showed you a miracle, and never gave you some kind of proof, you STILL would believe? That takes some serious determination.

[bjornolf]

I have a problem with the whole "atheist" thing. I mean, aren't all atheists really agnostic too? I mean, Windsor, I get it. But if God actually appeared to you and you had a conversation and he showed you miracles, and he gave you some kind of proof (DNA sample you found a way to test and it came back "God"), you STILL wouldn't believe? That takes some serious determination. ;)

Could an atheist then ask you: If God never appeared to you, never had a conversation with you, and never showed you a miracle, and never gave you some kind of proof, you STILL would believe? That takes some serious determination.

My point is just that by definition, an atheist will NEVER believe no matter what. Even WITH proof. Therefore, I just kinda figured that MOST atheists are really agnostics, people who don't believe and won't until given proof.

I HAVE seen things that I believe are miracles. I have seen guardian angels at work, in my humble opinion, so I don't have any trouble believing. A LOT of people believe without seeing. That's why in the bible, Jesus tells Thomas "You have seen, and believe. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." JMHO. Hope Windsor doesn't hate me and think I'm a naive, moronic okie now.

[wilson]

My point is just that by definition, an atheist will NEVER believe no matter what. Even WITH proof. Therefore, I just kinda figured that MOST atheists are really agnostics, people who don't believe and won't until given proof.

I think you're misreading the distinction. An agnostic is someone who is admittedly unsure, who has no interest one way or the other, just honestly doesn't know whether or not there's a God. An atheist has considered the question and come to a sufficient personal conclusion that there is no God...they actively disbelieve.
There is a somewhat subtle, but important difference there.

[bjornolf]

Fair enough. I never really thought of it like that. If you don't believe, then you're a non-believer. An agnostic is basically an atheist who's wishy-washy about it in my book. That's just the way I've always thought of it.

[windsor]

I HAVE seen things that I believe are miracles. I have seen guardian angels at work, in my humble opinion, so I don't have any trouble believing. A LOT of people believe without seeing. That's why in the bible, Jesus tells Thomas "You have seen, and believe. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet believe." JMHO. Hope Windsor doesn't hate me and think I'm a naive, moronic okie now.

Here is the thing...I don't care what anyone believes...if it works for you, then have at it.
As long as someone doesn't try to force their beliefs on me it is all good.

[TNTDevil]

Fair enough. I never really thought of it like that. If you don't believe, then you're a non-believer. An agnostic is basically an atheist who's wishy-washy about it in my book. That's just the way I've always thought of it.

Nope. An Agnostic believes that there is a "higher power" (or Supreme entity, if you will), they just don't tend to view that power through the lense of religion.

[wilson]

Nope. An Agnostic believes that there is a "higher power" (or Supreme entity, if you will), they just don't tend to view that power through the lense of religion.

Again, a slight misread. An agnostic does not necessarily believe in a higher power. An agnostic simply believes that the existence or non-existence of God is unprovable, and that his/her personal experience has done nothing to spur them in one or the other direction.
The very word "agnostic" is constructed of Greek roots meaning "without knowledge." Your above read, while a common interpretation of the word, is not entirely accurate.

[bjornolf]

Nope. An Agnostic believes that there is a "higher power" (or Supreme entity, if you will), they just don't tend to view that power through the lense of religion.

Again, a slight misread. An agnostic does not necessarily believe in a higher power. An agnostic simply believes that the existence or non-existence of God is unprovable, and that his/her personal experience has done nothing to spur them in one or the other direction.
The very word "agnostic" is constructed of Greek roots meaning "without knowledge." Your above read, while a common interpretation of the word, is not entirely accurate.

I'm not a big fan of that definition, because you either believe or you don't. If you feel that the existence or non-existence of God is unprovable, and that his/her personal experience has done nothing to spur them in one or the other direction. Can you really sit on the fence on this? I mean, assuming that God DOES exist, then which line do you think the agnostic is gonna be put in at the pearly gates? if you're NOT believing, then you DON'T believe in God. You can't really be neither a believer nor a non-believer. That just doesn't make sense to me at all. It's like they say, NOT making a decision is, in and of itself, a decision.

[Lavabe]

"I believe in God, but I'm not a churchgoer."

Anyone who attends a synagogue or a mosque would have to answer with this choice.

Technically, both Sue and I are gastronomic Jewish. Pass the knadls, sis!! ;)

I don't recall ever being given rules that measured my Jewish-ness by my attendance at synagogue. It's sort of measured by what rests in my heart and soul.

Cheers,
Lavabe

P.S. As I close this thread, I am hearing the Muslim call to prayer from the largest mosque in Antsiranana. REALLY cool!! MUST take photos someday.

[wilson]

I'm not a big fan of that definition, because you either believe or you don't. If you feel that the existence or non-existence of God is unprovable, and that his/her personal experience has done nothing to spur them in one or the other direction. Can you really sit on the fence on this? I mean, assuming that God DOES exist, then which line do you think the agnostic is gonna be put in at the pearly gates? if you're NOT believing, then you DON'T believe in God. You can't really be neither a believer nor a non-believer. That just doesn't make sense to me at all.

I think it makes just fine sense. You don't know. Believers and non-believers have chosen to adopt a particular position based on their experiences, influences, etc. Agnostics have yet to adopt such a position, generally not thinking that their knowledge and/or experiences permit them to adopt such a confident stance. There are an array of agnostics. For instance, there are those who are still seeking understanding. There are also many who don't feel compelled to "figure God out" now or ever (whom I suspect would generally not describe themselves as "spiritual"), but who when pressed to give an answer about their own feelings on God, confess that they just aren't sure, and don't feel qualified to give an answer.
I think that in some ways, it's actually a fairly theologically sound answer, as it is in some instances a simple admission that we are all rather inconsequential in comparison to whatever is out there. Consequently, there is a whole heck of a lot that we definitely don't know, irrespective of what you believe.

[wilson]

"I believe in God, but I'm not a churchgoer."

Anyone who attends a synagogue or a mosque would have to answer with this choice.

Technically, both Sue and I are gastronomic Jewish. Pass the knadls, sis!! ;)

I don't recall ever being given rules that measured my Jewish-ness by my attendance at synagogue. It's sort of measured by what rests in my heart and soul.

Cheers,
Lavabe

Yes, I am very embarrassed by this oversight. By the time I thought about more inclusive language, though, a lot of people had already voted, and editing any answer choice resets all responses.
I sincerely hope that y'all are aware of my respect for all faiths, and my genuine interest in this question as a matter of humanity, rather than of categorizing people.

[Miles]

If you really wanna bend your mind, study Christian Atheism.

[Sue71]

Consequently, there is a whole heck of a lot that we definitely don't know, irrespective of what you believe.

And this extends way beyond religion...

[Miles]

I sincerely hope that y'all are aware of my respect for all faiths, and my genuine interest in this question as a matter of humanity, rather than of categorizing people.

I never felt the opposite to be true.

[bjornolf]

Couldn't agree more with both of you, Wilson and Sue!

[cl15876]

.... P.S. As I close this thread, I am hearing the Muslim call to prayer from the largest mosque in Antsiranana. REALLY cool!! MUST take photos someday.

Lavabe - in all seriousness, as crazy as this world is right now and people being accused of various and sundry acts.... BE CAREFUL when taking pictures in another country ..... I want to introduce myself to you this year... I missed the opportunity last year!!!! I am loving your experiences and feedback!

[Lavabe]

.... P.S. As I close this thread, I am hearing the Muslim call to prayer from the largest mosque in Antsiranana. REALLY cool!! MUST take photos someday.

Lavabe - in all seriousness, as crazy as this world is right now and people being accused of various and sundry acts.... BE CAREFUL when taking pictures in another country ..... I want to introduce myself to you this year... I missed the opportunity last year!!!! I am loving your experiences and feedback!

I have lots of friends at all the mosques, and I always seek their advice before taking such photos. In fact, on July 4th, I'm invited to a birthday party for a 1-yr-old from the Shia' family who used to own a yogurt shop. Please note that I had much bigger concerns being over here as the lone American during the first Gulf War, but I actually developed a lot of good long-lasting friendships from it. The yogurt shop folks nicknamed me Sadam Hussein; their Comoroan cook always greeted me with "Washington University, en Amerique, Monsieur President Georges Doof, Monsieur Sous-President Dan Kuwaiti."

Seriously, the Islamic folks in town (there are at least 13 tall minarets from mosques in town) are really great, and have always been wonderful. ILJ, if she sees this thread, could comment more.

wilson: FWIW, the call to prayer is really one of the most beautiful sounds in Antsiranana, but I learned more about the call to prayer from the ethnomusicologist at Emory, Tong Soon-Lee, who did his dissertation on its use in Singapore. REALLY cool stuff!
Cheers,
Lavabe