The Job Search Thread

[ArkieDukie]

Since I'm not the only person here looking for a job, I thought it might be useful to have a general thread to talk about job search strategies and share tips. I want to start things out by asking a couple of questions. First off, I'm a bit concerned about what my references might say about me (like, say, my last 2 bosses). Not including them, in my mind, would set off all sorts of alarm bells. I saw an article about hiring a 3rd party professional to check out your references to see what they may be saying about you. Has anyone heard of doing something like this, and what do you think of the idea? Secondly, has anyone ever used a head hunter to find a job? How do you find one? Would it be just as effective to post my CV with one or two professional societies in my field?

Any thoughts, suggestions, etc. would be greatly appreciated.

[CathyCA]

You should have a very frank conversation with your current boss about your job search and about giving references. Tell him that you are serious about getting a new job and that you will need his help. Ask him what he will say so that you will be prepared. (It's in his best interests to help you get a new job. He doesn't want to be doing the extra work when the unemployment office calls upon him to inquire about the reasons you don't have a job.) He doesn't have to give you a glowing recommendation. He could simply confirm the dates of your employment, and confirm your job responsibilities. As a matter of fact, many companies have policies to release only this type of information to prospective employers when they call for references.

If you feel like you need a glowing recommendation, ask one of your co-workers to do it for you. If you are going to be in a supervisory position, you might even consider having one of the people who reported to you write a letter of recommendation describing how wonderful you are as a supervisor. I don't necessarily hear alarm bells going off when I read a resume and don't see the boss listed as a reference, or read a recommendation letter from the boss.

In terms of getting your resume out there, I have found that my most satisfying jobs came through personal contacts. I've sent letters (or emails) to everyone I knew in my field and asked them if they knew of any job openings, and those people came through for me. Random headhunters used to call ExLax all the time, and I learned that these people get paid a commission for filling a position. I'm not sure whether they were more concerned with finding the very best fit for him, or whether they were trying to find the very best commission for themselves. His best jobs always came through personal connections. Of course, if you're interested in finding the highest paying job for your skill set, then a headhunter is a really good way to do it.

Just my $.02.

[ArkieDukie]

You should have a very frank conversation with your current boss about your job search and about giving references. Tell him that you are serious about getting a new job and that you will need his help. Ask him what he will say so that you will be prepared. (It's in his best interests to help you get a new job. He doesn't want to be doing the extra work when the unemployment office calls upon him to inquire about the reasons you don't have a job.) He doesn't have to give you a glowing recommendation. He could simply confirm the dates of your employment, and confirm your job responsibilities. As a matter of fact, many companies have policies to release only this type of information to prospective employers when they call for references.

If you feel like you need a glowing recommendation, ask one of your co-workers to do it for you. If you are going to be in a supervisory position, you might even consider having one of the people who reported to you write a letter of recommendation describing how wonderful you are as a supervisor. I don't necessarily hear alarm bells going off when I read a resume and don't see the boss listed as a reference, or read a recommendation letter from the boss.

In terms of getting your resume out there, I have found that my most satisfying jobs came through personal contacts. I've sent letters (or emails) to everyone I knew in my field and asked them if they knew of any job openings, and those people came through for me. Random headhunters used to call ExLax all the time, and I learned that these people get paid a commission for filling a position. I'm not sure whether they were more concerned with finding the very best fit for him, or whether they were trying to find the very best commission for themselves. His best jobs always came through personal connections. Of course, if you're interested in finding the highest paying job for your skill set, then a headhunter is a really good way to do it.

Just my $.02.

Thanks, Cathy; that sounds like very solid advice. I do realize that, at some point, I will have to suck it up and have the conversation with my current boss. Given my his MO, I do not know how honest he will be with me regarding what he will say. Heck, he wouldn't man up and tell me he wanted me to find a new job. Instead, he chose to change my job responsibilities around and let me find out about it after the fact from coworkers. I probably should've confronted him about it sooner rather than letting him do his thing. However, he tends to do this with everyone in the lab to some extent. I have a former coworker who can testify to this and will likely be a reference. He knows of my abilities and can provide insight if asked.

I am already starting to mine my connections, and I'm being careful to avoid people that might feel a bit awkward or conflicted due to connections with my current boss. That's somewhat tricky since he knows everyone. However, I am using two people who know him. One of them is a collaborator who is very happy with the work I did for them.

[DevilAlumna]

First off, I'm a bit concerned about what my references might say about me (like, say, my last 2 bosses). Not including them, in my mind, would set off all sorts of alarm bells. <snip>

WRT references, you don't need to mention them at all until they are requested (if ever). In my experience, by then, you probably have already interviewed, wow'ed the new boss, and the reference check is just to make sure you're not a psycopathic liar. You can always tell the new job that your current manager doesn't know you're interviewing (pretty common scenario), so please contact "coworker A" at your current place of employment. For additional references, just provide names of people who you KNOW will give good recommendations about you. Be sure to tell your references they may be contacted, and about the job for which you're gunning.

Should new job be absolutely insistent on getting your your current and immediate past managers' info for references (highly unlikely), tell those two ahead of time that you're interviewing and they may be contacted, and you'd appreciate them simply confirming your employment dates. If you're TRULY afraid they'd scuttle your efforts (tho like Cathy pointed out, it's in your current manager's selfish interests to help you depart), then just provide the number of the HR Office at those places of employment.

[ArkieDukie]

First off, I'm a bit concerned about what my references might say about me (like, say, my last 2 bosses). Not including them, in my mind, would set off all sorts of alarm bells. <snip>

WRT references, you don't need to mention them at all until they are requested (if ever). In my experience, by then, you probably have already interviewed, wow'ed the new boss, and the reference check is just to make sure you're not a psycopathic liar. You can always tell the new job that your current manager doesn't know you're interviewing (pretty common scenario), so please contact "coworker A" at your current place of employment. For additional references, just provide names of people who you KNOW will give good recommendations about you. Be sure to tell your references they may be contacted, and about the job for which you're gunning.

Should new job be absolutely insistent on getting your your current and immediate past managers' info for references (highly unlikely), tell those two ahead of time that you're interviewing and they may be contacted, and you'd appreciate them simply confirming your employment dates. If you're TRULY afraid they'd scuttle your efforts (tho like Cathy pointed out, it's in your current manager's selfish interests to help you depart), then just provide the number of the HR Office at those places of employment.

I was hoping that's the case, but I'm somewhat concerned about a different type of scenario - especially in the case of my current boss. Let's say you see a job applicant in your pool who works for someone you know. How common/legal is it to call someone and get an "off-the-record" opinion on an applicant before interviewing them?

[CathyCA]

Let's say you see a job applicant in your pool who works for someone you know. How common/legal is it to call someone and get an "off-the-record" opinion on an applicant before interviewing them?

I wouldn't think that it occurs very often. Most people who are hiring are looking for specific skill sets and are looking for the strongest resumes before conducting initial interviews. Like DA said:

. . . by then, you probably have already interviewed, wow'ed the new boss, and the reference check is just to make sure you're not a psycopathic liar.

It's very important that you have someone proofread your resume and your cover letters. You want to make a stellar first impression, and the resume is the way to do it. Get someone like Wilson to proofread it for grammar, punctuation and spelling errors. You certainly do not want the person who is hiring you to find any mistakes. That signals an inattention to detail, especially if there are multiple errors.

Oh, and be sure to follow the directions in submitting an application for employment. You would be amazed at how often candidates aren't considered for the position because they failed to follow the prospective employer's simple directions for submitting an application for employment.

[captmojo]

And, should any personal references be needed, this group is at service. ;) Riff-raff that we are!

[windsor]

As a matter of fact, many companies have policies to release only this type of information to prospective employers when they call for references.

While that is true - many companies have dates of employment and if you are elligble for re-hire (yes or no) there is an end around. I can give an official reference that contains only the corporate prescribed information - and offer a 'personal' recommendation when I truly want to recommend an employee. This is common enough that I have been ASKED by hiring HR folks if I would give a personal reference and saying "No" has become akin to saying "they sucked long and hard"

Employers are usuallly very careful about contacting your current job....they don't want to cost a candidate their current gig incase the job search is not public (and it usually isn't). When they ask if they can contact your current employer say 'after an offer is extended'. That is perfectly reasonable and acceptable.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

As you write your resume', today's style and content is different than it was ten years ago. I saw that on a 60 Minutes story a few weeks ago. Be sure yours is "up to date".

As to head hunters, have you ever gotten a call from one, asking if you knew of someone qualified looking for a new position? They were really asking if you were interested, but that's besides the point. They're still out there and are a viable option.

[windsor]

My resumes were always customized to the job. I wrote one 'master' resume with bullet points of accomplishments/responsibilities at each job....it was pushing 8 pages when it was done. When I applied I made a copy, renamed it and just cut out the points I didn't wan.t I save it, the cover letter (also custom) if need in a folder on my laptop with a copy of the job description and any notes I had about the company/job. If I got a call I could pull up the exact resume and job description so I knew which points to speak to. Being in IT my background is hugely varied - I wanted to make sure I could get out a resume that spoke to the company's need quickly and without having to re-write every time. Action words are the current 'thing' - and hard dollars/metrics. Real numbers. Search online for resumes of folks who are a level or two above where you're applying and look at what they're doing.

Have the resume/CV reviewed by a pro. My local unemployment office had excellent folks on staff (my prior employer went belly up).

Head hunters are fine as long as the employer is paying the fee. Avoid anyone who wants you to cough up $.

Find a friend (or friends) and practice interviewing. It REALLY helps. Recording it and watching yourself is extremely helpful.

Do your homework. Most companies now use an HR initiated phone interview. If the company name is on the job opening be sure you know something about them when you apply. Have prepared questions about the company. My current gig I researched the company, made up my questions and sent my resume. 20 minutes later HR called me. Seriously - 20 minutes.

Oh, and prepare a good reason that your leaving your present employer, obviously not one that includes the words "my boss is a scum sucking bottom dweller with a ring in hell reserved just for him"

[ArkieDukie]

Thanks for the tips, folks! I'm currently in the process of updating my CV/resume. It's the one I used for this job, so all I really need to do is add some bullet points regarding my current job and also update my publications. Since the darn thing is 10 pages long (!), got rid of some extraneous information. I removed invited presentations and posters. Most of the posters are from my old career as an organic chemist/faculty member at a liberal arts college and are really irrelevant. I did keep papers and published abstracts. Length is now 7 pages.

I put it together using a template in MS Word, so I think the format is current. It seems redundant to me to have a summary of work experience that lists all of my jobs (with supervisors), followed later by a section that details my work experience by position held. It seems like I had all of this information in one section back when I was a grad student.

[ArkieDukie]

The first draft of my updated resume is finished, as of about 15 minutes ago! I'm hoping to send it to a friend/collaborator who's acting as a reference for me. As a fellow scientist who also happens to work for a biotech company, I think she'll be able to give me some good feedback regarding format. I tried to list bullet points for each job in order of decreasing wow factor, so I am thinking that maybe she can look at it from an employer's perspective and tell me what she thinks. I might still need a grammatical read-through, though. Any volunteers?

I have a germ of an idea for a job. I have thought for a while now that, with my experience, I'd be well-suited to a job with an instrument company as a field applications specialist. Basically that means I'd travel around and train people to use instruments and software for data analysis. A classmate from college works for the instrument company that I think I'm the best fit for, and I've already written to her to get her opinion. She \thinks I'd be an ideal candidate. The only down side to this position is that you travel about 75% of the time, and I'm not sure how I'd like that. The other 25% of the time you do tech support from home. If nothing else, I'll be looking into it some more.

[lawgrad91]

The first draft of my updated resume is finished, as of about 15 minutes ago! I'm hoping to send it to a friend/collaborator who's acting as a reference for me. As a fellow scientist who also happens to work for a biotech company, I think she'll be able to give me some good feedback regarding format. I tried to list bullet points for each job in order of decreasing wow factor, so I am thinking that maybe she can look at it from an employer's perspective and tell me what she thinks. I might still need a grammatical read-through, though. Any volunteers?

I have a germ of an idea for a job. I have thought for a while now that, with my experience, I'd be well-suited to a job with an instrument company as a field applications specialist. Basically that means I'd travel around and train people to use instruments and software for data analysis. A classmate from college works for the instrument company that I think I'm the best fit for, and I've already written to her to get her opinion. She \thinks I'd be an ideal candidate. The only down side to this position is that you travel about 75% of the time, and I'm not sure how I'd like that. The other 25% of the time you do tech support from home. If nothing else, I'll be looking into it some more.

I am a grammar Nazi. Not on the level of Wilson, but I'll be glad to take a look, if you want to email your resume to me: certdog@yahoo.com.

Maybe you could arrange to train people in Durham during the weekend of Countdown to Craziness and at least one Brunchgate.

[ArkieDukie]

The first draft of my updated resume is finished, as of about 15 minutes ago! I'm hoping to send it to a friend/collaborator who's acting as a reference for me. As a fellow scientist who also happens to work for a biotech company, I think she'll be able to give me some good feedback regarding format. I tried to list bullet points for each job in order of decreasing wow factor, so I am thinking that maybe she can look at it from an employer's perspective and tell me what she thinks. I might still need a grammatical read-through, though. Any volunteers?

I have a germ of an idea for a job. I have thought for a while now that, with my experience, I'd be well-suited to a job with an instrument company as a field applications specialist. Basically that means I'd travel around and train people to use instruments and software for data analysis. A classmate from college works for the instrument company that I think I'm the best fit for, and I've already written to her to get her opinion. She \thinks I'd be an ideal candidate. The only down side to this position is that you travel about 75% of the time, and I'm not sure how I'd like that. The other 25% of the time you do tech support from home. If nothing else, I'll be looking into it some more.

I am a grammar Nazi. Not on the level of Wilson, but I'll be glad to take a look, if you want to email your resume to me: certdog@yahoo.com.

Maybe you could arrange to train people in Durham during the weekend of Countdown to Craziness and at least one Brunchgate.

Thanks, lawgrad! You should have received a copy of my resume a few minutes ago.

It would be pretty cool to get a job where work-related traveling could be arranged to match football and basketball schedules. Unfortunately, I don't think it works that way. Darn the luck.

[lawgrad91]

I got it!

Unfortunately the format didn't come through properly on the Apple, so I'll crank up the other laptop tomorrow after church and take a look.

[captmojo]

Speaking as one that travels on the job, it's nice to have a changing work environment rather than the hum-drum daily existence of the same regular four walls, furniture and accessories. I wish for you, to get the match in a job that you prefer.

[ArkieDukie]

Speaking as one that travels on the job, it's nice to have a changing work environment rather than the hum-drum daily existence of the same regular four walls, furniture and accessories. I wish for you, to get the match in a job that you prefer.

Thanks for the input, mojo. Frequent change of scenery is a plus, for sure.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I have a germ of an idea for a job. I have thought for a while now that, with my experience, I'd be well-suited to a job with an instrument company as a field applications specialist. Basically that means I'd travel around and train people to use instruments and software for data analysis. A classmate from college works for the instrument company that I think I'm the best fit for, and I've already written to her to get her opinion. She \thinks I'd be an ideal candidate. The only down side to this position is that you travel about 75% of the time, and I'm not sure how I'd like that. The other 25% of the time you do tech support from home. If nothing else, I'll be looking into it some more.

As someone who sold industrial instrumentation for 30 years, and biotech instrumentation for about 5, there is certainly a need for someone qualified to do this. That this is the time or economy that those companies are inclined to hire someone to do it is questionable. But I certainly hope it works out for you, AD. Sometimes when the right person comes along to fill a position they find the funding to fill a long time need, even if it wasn't in their current or immediate plans.

[ArkieDukie]

I was all set to upload my newly completed CV to a professional society website, and then I discovered that my boss is planning to interview people at the upcoming conference (the one he's not letting me attend). That means he will be going through the CVs on the website, assuming he can figure out how to do that (he's not the most technologically savvy person in the world). What should I do? Go ahead and upload and take a chance on him seeing my CV posted, or go about finding a job through other avenues? I just finished updating my profile on LinkedIn and have found some promising leads there. I can also apply for jobs through the professional society website without posting. So, there are other avenues out there. Thoughts?

[CathyCA]

I was all set to upload my newly completed CV to a professional society website, and then I discovered that my boss is planning to interview people at the upcoming conference (the one he's not letting me attend). That means he will be going through the CVs on the website, assuming he can figure out how to do that (he's not the most technologically savvy person in the world). What should I do? Go ahead and upload and take a chance on him seeing my CV posted, or go about finding a job through other avenues? I just finished updating my profile on LinkedIn and have found some promising leads there. I can also apply for jobs through the professional society website without posting. So, there are other avenues out there. Thoughts?

If he knows you're looking for a job, then upload your CV to the website. If he doesn't know, then wait until he knows.