BTD

[McGrupp]

Hello everyone. I see the subject of Begging To Differ has come up here. I thought I would give a quick recap of BTD's history.

We started out as a collaborative blog written by four regular DBR posters: McGrupp, Blue Diablo, DevilTribe and Ramar Wright. The idea was for two liberals and two conservatives to blog the issues of the day (mostly in article format but occasionally responding directly to each other) in a spirit of tolerance and good faith. We were moderately successful in the early days, in terms of generating readership and building relationships with well-known political bloggers. However, as time went on, each of us became less and less willing to put in the time required to maintain a first-class blog. Too much work for too little reward.

Around the same time, DBR was going through one of its periodic convulsions of overwrought emotion brought on by arbitrary heavy-handed moderation. After one particularly nasty episode (the details of which I no longer remember... there were so many) we decided to open up a message board on BTD. The idea was for the board to serve as an adjunct comment section for the blog, and also to provide a haven for disfavored minority refugees of DBR. Sound familiar?

Eventually the blog withered away to nothing, and now only the message board remains. It is a small but stable community. Those of you who have looked at the site certainly have seen some familiar names. Those of you who never heard of us I suspect probably joined DBR after BTD was established.

I became aware of the DBR dissident Facebook group and reached out to CameronBornAndBred when it appeared you were going to establish a new site. I thought, since BTD already existed, you might save some hassle and money. However, it's quite clear you've got a great thing going here (in fact I'm openly jealous of this board software and I wish I had the technological savvy to upgrade the program we're using at BTD). Also, you folks had a ready-made community with your own culture, traditions and inside jokes - it is appropriate for you to have a space of your own.

We decided early in the BTD experiment that there would be essentially no moderation. To this day, we have never deleted a post or banned a poster. We never lock threads, ask for rewrites, issue "infraction points" or anything along those lines. The only exception is auto-generated spam. Anyone can register and post at BTD and say anything they like.

There were some bumps in the road for the first couple of years. Lots of folks wanted to "test" the concept of zero moderation by trying to get themselves or others banned. Of the people who have gotten frustrated and left, most are folks who are angry because we refused to punish someone else.

Over time, the community has become entirely self-policing. The subjects of standards and rules and banning simply never comes up. I am strongly convinced that heavy handed moderation causes the very problems it purports to solve, that it encourages the very behavior to purports to discourage. This is one area in which my friend throatybeard and I disagree. We've made our views on this subject clear to each other many times. Ultimately, I think it's ideal for people to exist in communities where they are comfortable. DBR is great for lots of people. Just not for me.

I am very interested in this board for the obvious reason that I launched a very similar experiment several years ago, for many of the same reasons and with some of the same people! Good old colchar (or coulchar as I like to call him) was a regular poster on BTD for a long time. throatybeard participates, I think, in every offshoot community of DBR posters, whether on the web or existing via email. We're all loosely affiliated within the DBR constellation.

Best of luck building a community, CrazieTalk.

[devildeac]

Hello everyone. I see the subject of Begging To Differ has come up here. I thought I would give a quick recap of BTD's history.

We started out as a collaborative blog written by four regular DBR posters: McGrupp, Blue Diablo, DevilTribe and Ramar Wright. The idea was for two liberals and two conservatives to blog the issues of the day (mostly in article format but occasionally responding directly to each other) in a spirit of tolerance and good faith. We were moderately successful in the early days, in terms of generating readership and building relationships with well-known political bloggers. However, as time went on, each of us became less and less willing to put in the time required to maintain a first-class blog. Too much work for too little reward.

Around the same time, DBR was going through one of its periodic convulsions of overwrought emotion brought on by arbitrary heavy-handed moderation. After one particularly nasty episode (the details of which I no longer remember... there were so many) we decided to open up a message board on BTD. The idea was for the board to serve as an adjunct comment section for the blog, and also to provide a haven for disfavored minority refugees of DBR. Sound familiar?

Eventually the blog withered away to nothing, and now only the message board remains. It is a small but stable community. Those of you who have looked at the site certainly have seen some familiar names. Those of you who never heard of us I suspect probably joined DBR after BTD was established.

I became aware of the DBR dissident Facebook group and reached out to CameronBornAndBred when it appeared you were going to establish a new site. I thought, since BTD already existed, you might save some hassle and money. However, it's quite clear you've got a great thing going here (in fact I'm openly jealous of this board software and I wish I had the technological savvy to upgrade the program we're using at BTD). Also, you folks had a ready-made community with your own culture, traditions and inside jokes - it is appropriate for you to have a space of your own.

We decided early in the BTD experiment that there would be essentially no moderation. To this day, we have never deleted a post or banned a poster. We never lock threads, ask for rewrites, issue "infraction points" or anything along those lines. The only exception is auto-generated spam. Anyone can register and post at BTD and say anything they like.

There were some bumps in the road for the first couple of years. Lots of folks wanted to "test" the concept of zero moderation by trying to get themselves or others banned. Of the people who have gotten frustrated and left, most are folks who are angry because we refused to punish someone else.

Over time, the community has become entirely self-policing. The subjects of standards and rules and banning simply never comes up. I am strongly convinced that heavy handed moderation causes the very problems it purports to solve, that it encourages the very behavior to purports to discourage. This is one area in which my friend throatybeard and I disagree. We've made our views on this subject clear to each other many times. Ultimately, I think it's ideal for people to exist in communities where they are comfortable. DBR is great for lots of people. Just not for me.

I am very interested in this board for the obvious reason that I launched a very similar experiment several years ago, for many of the same reasons and with some of the same people! Good old colchar (or coulchar as I like to call him) was a regular poster on BTD for a long time. throatybeard participates, I think, in every offshoot community of DBR posters, whether on the web or existing via email. We're all loosely affiliated within the DBR constellation.

Best of luck building a community, CrazieTalk.

That is GREAT stuff. Thanks for sharing, your well wishes and joining our community, too. Don't be a stranger as I remember many of the good things you contributed to the "old" DBR, before I became a member, regular poster and such a gratuitous PW. :oops: :lol:

[colchar]

That is GREAT stuff. Thanks for sharing, your well wishes and joining our community, too. Don't be a stranger as I remember many of the good things you contributed to the "old" DBR, before I became a member, regular poster and such a gratuitous PW. :oops: :lol:

I couldn't agree more - that was great stuff. BTD is a fun community that was started, as mentioned, for reasons similar to those that led to the creation of this place.

[CameronBornAndBred]

There are a hundred million things I love about your post McGrupp, thankfully you said them in less words. Thanks so much for sharing your history, and for wishing us the best as we write our own future. I've been busy working and painting today, but I gotta check out the bee story I've heard about earlier.
The internet would be awfully lonely without friends to share the world with. That's why our sites exist, and that's why they will continue. GO DUKE!! GO BTD!! GO CRAZIETALK!! GO TO HELL CAROLINA!!!

[colchar]

There are a hundred million things I love about your post McGrupp, thankfully you said them in less words. Thanks so much for sharing your history, and for wishing us the best as we write our own future.

Luckily, there are two professional historians here so we can take care of writing the history of this place when one is eventually needed. Actually, come to think of it, it might be an interesting study for a sociologist to look at the relationships that exist around here (both here and on BTD) and how they grew from DBR to our sites and, for some, to real life. Or a study of these sites' cultures would be interesting as well.

Alright, that wasn't the most eloquent way to say that but I've been drinking so I get a mulligan tonight. Despite the lack of eloquence I'm sure y'all know what I mean.

[colchar]

Hello everyone. I see the subject of Begging To Differ has come up here.

Yeah, my bad ;)

After one particularly nasty episode (the details of which I no longer remember... there were so many) we decided to open up a message board on BTD.

Wasn't it 'Black Friday' (or whichever day of the week that actually was)?

However, it's quite clear you've got a great thing going here

Thanks.

(in fact I'm openly jealous of this board software and I wish I had the technological savvy to upgrade the program we're using at BTD).

Personally, I always liked the BTD software and thought it worked very well. It might be different from an administrator's perspective but, as an end user, I liked it.

Also, you folks had a ready-made community with your own culture, traditions and inside jokes - it is appropriate for you to have a space of your own.

Yeah, we're all equally fucked up and fit in well with each other. By the way, in case you haven't noticed, you can say fuck here if you so desire.

We decided early in the BTD experiment that there would be essentially no moderation. To this day, we have never deleted a post or banned a poster. We never lock threads, ask for rewrites, issue "infraction points" or anything along those lines. The only exception is auto-generated spam. Anyone can register and post at BTD and say anything they like.

We're going with a 'less is more' style of moderation around here and, thus far, it has worked very well. I like what we've done, and are continuing to do, and don't anticipate having to change anything.

I am strongly convinced that heavy handed moderation causes the very problems it purports to solve, that it encourages the very behavior to purports to discourage.

I couldn't agree more.

Ultimately, I think it's ideal for people to exist in communities where they are comfortable.

I'm glad everyone feels comfortable here and pray that if anyone, at any time, becomes uncomfortable about anything here they will bring it up to the mods or the admin rather than leaving.

DBR is great for lots of people. Just not for me.

It got that way for me too. Even if I wasn't banned I highly doubt I would ever want to go back there. I wonder how many other people who used to be very active members of that community now feel the same way?

I am very interested in this board for the obvious reason that I launched a very similar experiment several years ago, for many of the same reasons and with some of the same people!

Since I was around for the founding of BTD I see a lot of similarities between the two sites and really like both. The pre-existing relationships, culture, inside jokes, etc. helped us to hit the ground running and I like what we've built. We've started something really cool here, just as you did there, and I hope it continues to grow.

Best of luck building a community, CrazieTalk.

Thanks - both for the well wishes and for the eloquent (as usual) post.

[colchar]

There are a hundred million things I love about your post McGrupp, thankfully you said them in less words.

He was eloquent as always.

I gotta check out the bee story I've heard about earlier.

It's a good one.

The internet would be awfully lonely without friends to share the world with.

Have you ever tried to explain to real life friends how you 'know' someone you've only ever interacted with on the web? I know people here, some from TOWEL, and some from BTD well enough that I would gladly, and without reservation, welcome them into my home if they were ever in the area. Try explaining something like that to real life friends!

[captmojo]

I can't add much to what has already been said, other than to say it's great to have you here.

[bjornolf]

Yeah, welcome McGrupp!

[Lavabe]

Have you ever tried to explain to real life friends how you 'know' someone you've only ever interacted with on the web? I know people here, some from TOWEL, and some from BTD well enough that I would gladly, and without reservation, welcome them into my home if they were ever in the area. Try explaining something like that to real life friends!

Oh yes... been there, done that. And I agree 100%.

And kudos to McGrupp for both posting here and for creating the BTD board. I was a lurker back in his DBR days, and always enjoyed his posts. I recalled the blog, but simply didn't realize that it migrated over into a board. Congratulations on a well-done site. Given all the folks over there, I'll definitely visit there more often.

And that BEE story is hideous... beware of graphic scenes!

[windsor]

Damn, I'd forgotten how much I missed folks like McGrupp on the DBR back in the day. I seem to recall the ModMeltdown that he speaks off. It happens every few years, then settles down for a little while.

McGrupp please stop by here from time to time and contribute (and bring your friends)!!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Yup! Welcome McGrupp! Your method is still legendary! And successful!

[McGrupp]

Wasn't it 'Black Friday' (or whichever day of the week that actually was)?

Thanks everyone for your well wishes. It is flattering so many of you apparently remember me from the old days. I started posting on DBR around 1998 or 1999, during the Clinton administration. I was not a great fan of Clinton's (an understatement) and I posted extensively throughout the 2000 election debacle. For all this, I was generally regarded as "conservative," which, along with my tendency to be a complete jackass, made me unpopular with the powers-that-were.

I was banned from time to time. I participated vigorously in the discussions of splitting the boards. I heard the analogy of the neighborhood bar approximately 20,000 times.

I've mellowed out a lot. Being ten years older has that effect, right? And I voted for Obama! Times change, people change.

I think colchar's recollection is correct. The BTD board went live shortly after Black Friday, which I vaguely recall as an incident in which several people were simultaneously banned for alleged infractions of the recently conceived anti-profanity policy. Although that was probably the instant cause, the ultimate cause was DBR's moderation generally, in which acceptable content was determined based on whether the poster was within the mod's circle of friends. I believe many of you have experienced the same things, which is funny in a way since the "new" moderation scheme purportedly exists to remedy the arbitrary and capricious nature of the "old" moderation. I know they think they're doing the best they can, and I know they're all probably good people. Power corrupts, though. It's really just as simple as that.

I believe the "TSTMNBN" acronym originated at BTD. (I just checked and we launched in January 2005). Although we started out with a lot of DBR posters, we really did not want to be an "anti-DBR board" nor did we want all the interpersonal baggage and rivalries drifting over into the new space. There were a lot of BTD blog readers who had never heard of DBR, and many of those folks became participants in the new BTD board. We sought to avoid the early formation of a DBR "clique" or give any impression that DBR posters were "more equal than others" on the new board.

It was a challenge, and I frequently asked people not to talk so much about DBR. In my view (and I still feel this way) DBR talk should occur on DBR. It just seems like the respectful thing. We also had a great fondness for DBR and our many friends there - we did not wish to be perceived as "anti-DBR" in any sense, nor as trying to lure away its posters or diminish its community.

So someone started calling it TSTMNBN and it stuck. By now enough time has passed that DBR rarely comes up at all, and if it does, it's generally a link to an interesting thread from someone who still participates there. I am pleased and relieved that the personal baggage from DBR no longer seems to figure on BTD at all.

After all that, I have a quick question: what the hell is PWing?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

After all that, I have a quick question: what the hell is PWing?

PW = Post Whore. noun, someone who posts way too much, mostly about nothing. see picture of Devildeac.
PWing - Post Whoring. adverb, the actions of a PW (is it an adverb? I haven't used that word since helping my daughter with her grammar in elementary school... :roll: )

[Bostondevil]

PW = post whore

[devildeac]

Wasn't it 'Black Friday' (or whichever day of the week that actually was)?

Thanks everyone for your well wishes. It is flattering so many of you apparently remember me from the old days. I started posting on DBR around 1998 or 1999, during the Clinton administration. I was not a great fan of Clinton's (an understatement) and I posted extensively throughout the 2000 election debacle. For all this, I was generally regarded as "conservative," which, along with my tendency to be a complete jackass, made me unpopular with the powers-that-were.

I was banned from time to time. I participated vigorously in the discussions of splitting the boards. I heard the analogy of the neighborhood bar approximately 20,000 times.

I've mellowed out a lot. Being ten years older has that effect, right? And I voted for Obama! Times change, people change.

I think colchar's recollection is correct. The BTD board went live shortly after Black Friday, which I vaguely recall as an incident in which several people were simultaneously banned for alleged infractions of the recently conceived anti-profanity policy. Although that was probably the instant cause, the ultimate cause was DBR's moderation generally, in which acceptable content was determined based on whether the poster was within the mod's circle of friends. I believe many of you have experienced the same things, which is funny in a way since the "new" moderation scheme purportedly exists to remedy the arbitrary and capricious nature of the "old" moderation. I know they think they're doing the best they can, and I know they're all probably good people. Power corrupts, though. It's really just as simple as that.

I believe the "TSTMNBN" acronym originated at BTD. (I just checked and we launched in January 2005). Although we started out with a lot of DBR posters, we really did not want to be an "anti-DBR board" nor did we want all the interpersonal baggage and rivalries drifting over into the new space. There were a lot of BTD blog readers who had never heard of DBR, and many of those folks became participants in the new BTD board. We sought to avoid the early formation of a DBR "clique" or give any impression that DBR posters were "more equal than others" on the new board.

It was a challenge, and I frequently asked people not to talk so much about DBR. In my view (and I still feel this way) DBR talk should occur on DBR. It just seems like the respectful thing. We also had a great fondness for DBR and our many friends there - we did not wish to be perceived as "anti-DBR" in any sense, nor as trying to lure away its posters or diminish its community.

So someone started calling it TSTMNBN and it stuck. By now enough time has passed that DBR rarely comes up at all, and if it does, it's generally a link to an interesting thread from someone who still participates there. I am pleased and relieved that the personal baggage from DBR no longer seems to figure on BTD at all.

After all that, I have a quick question: what the hell is PWing?

Another excellent history lesson. Thanks again for sharing.

[devildeac]

After all that, I have a quick question: what the hell is PWing?

PW = Post Whore. noun, someone who posts way too much, mostly about nothing. see picture of Devildeac.
PWing - Post Whoring. adverb, the actions of a PW (is it an adverb? I haven't used that word since helping my daughter with her grammar in elementary school... :roll: )

Yuk, yuk, yuk.

Pot, meet kettle...

But then again, you certainly have learned well in recent months :roll: ;) . You have quite a # of good mentors .

[colchar]

I think colchar's recollection is correct. The BTD board went live shortly after Black Friday, which I vaguely recall as an incident in which several people were simultaneously banned for alleged infractions of the recently conceived anti-profanity policy.

I remember the incident as I was partly responsible for it. Someone (can't remember who) had posted a response to another poster (WIDukie, IIRC) that was extremely rude. I responded in WIDukie's defense and called the other poster a jackass. WI and a couple of others followed suit. All of us who responded were banned temporarily but the person who made the original post wasn't as I think they were part of the inner circle. Typical.

I believe the "TSTMNBN" acronym originated at BTD. (I just checked and we launched in January 2005)

It did.

So someone started calling it TSTMNBN and it stuck.

I can't remember who first used it over there (actually it might have been me but, in case I am wrong, I don't want to take credit for it) but I remembered it and am fairly certain I am the first (or one of the first) to use it here.

[Lavabe]

TSTMNBN means what? :oops: :oops: :oops:

[colchar]

TSTMNBN means what? :oops: :oops: :oops:

The Site That Must Not Be Named.