AC help needed

[DukeUsul]

We replaced our entire unit at our old house in 2007 for just over $5k.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

We replaced our entire unit at our old house in 2007 for just over $5k.

Prices have gone up since then. Talking with the boss of the company that installed my unit way back in the mid 90's, he said he can't buy systems now for what he installed them for 10 years ago.

[bjornolf]

We got a Carrier 3.5 ton gas furnace and AC to replace our piece of junk for $7500 in 2009.

[bluebutton]

I talked to Ozzie and he recommended getting a couple of quote from local dealers. I asked a neighbor who serviced their HVAC system and they mentioned a family run business, Ed & Sons, that they've used for 20 years. I spent the morning calling a couple other outfits, but Ed & Sons were the first to make it to the house. One of the "sons" showed up, I told him about the system and the evap coil leak. He took a look at the furnace and the box outside and said it was all in good shape and should still last for a while. Then he took off the panel to check the evap coil. He poked around with his sniffer for 5 or 10 minutes and COULD NOT FIND A LEAK!! Told us that if there was a big leak the whole system would go down again in several weeks, but if it was a little leak it'd last through the summer and we could check back on things in March. In March, they could try to pin point the leak and repair it. Both scenarios he gave would cost like $200-400. He wouldn't give an estimate for getting new equipment, didn't think we needed it.

The other guys: one guy called and gave an estimate over the phone--a tax credit qualified system for $6K by American Standard. The other guy came by, kinda slick, didn't look at the system other than to note its age and that it's a 5 ton system-- $6800 for a Carrier system that also qualifies for the tax credit.

Then I called the original repair guys. He said a 13 SEER (non-qualifying) Ruud system would be $7485 and that the warranty would cover the coil, $1075, leaving us ~$6400 out of pocket. Does not make any sense to me. So then I called the warranty people. The lady said that if I emailed her the other quotes, she could get the repair guy to probably lower the price. But with the rebates for the other system, the guy would have to come down to under ~$5K and we'd still be left with a less efficient unit. Then I told her that Ed & Sons couldn't find the leak. She said we could wait out summer and get a new system later. Once a system was authorized it didn't matter when we put it in. This is interesting, but doesn't solve the problem with the warranty appearing to be basically useless.

I'll talk things over with my husband tonight. Not feeling the home warranty is good for much at this point.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I talked to Ozzie and he recommended getting a couple of quote from local dealers. I asked a neighbor who serviced their HVAC system and they mentioned a family run business, Ed & Sons, that they've used for 20 years. I spent the morning calling a couple other outfits, but Ed & Sons were the first to make it to the house. One of the "sons" showed up, I told him about the system and the evap coil leak. He took a look at the furnace and the box outside and said it was all in good shape and should still last for a while. Then he took off the panel to check the evap coil. He poked around with his sniffer for 5 or 10 minutes and COULD NOT FIND A LEAK!! Told us that if there was a big leak the whole system would go down again in several weeks, but if it was a little leak it'd last through the summer and we could check back on things in March. In March, they could try to pin point the leak and repair it. Both scenarios he gave would cost like $200-400. He wouldn't give an estimate for getting new equipment, didn't think we needed it.

The other guys: one guy called and gave an estimate over the phone--a tax credit qualified system for $6K by American Standard. The other guy came by, kinda slick, didn't look at the system other than to note its age and that it's a 5 ton system-- $6800 for a Carrier system that also qualifies for the tax credit.

Then I called the original repair guys. He said a 13 SEER (non-qualifying) Ruud system would be $7485 and that the warranty would cover the coil, $1075, leaving us ~$6400 out of pocket. Does not make any sense to me. So then I called the warranty people. The lady said that if I emailed her the other quotes, she could get the repair guy to probably lower the price. But with the rebates for the other system, the guy would have to come down to under ~$5K and we'd still be left with a less efficient unit. Then I told her that Ed & Sons couldn't find the leak. She said we could wait out summer and get a new system later. Once a system was authorized it didn't matter when we put it in. This is interesting, but doesn't solve the problem with the warranty appearing to be basically useless.

I'll talk things over with my husband tonight. Not feeling the home warranty is good for much at this point.

I love it when I give the right advice!

A couple of questions.
1. Did Ed & Sons charge you for the visit? Was it a sales call (usually free) or a service evaluation call (usual to charge a basic service call fee, even if they don't do anything - I paid my original installer $95 to tell me what was wrong with my blower motor that I had someone else replace)? If it was free for what he did, you've got a keeper there. And as long as the "Sons" are actively involved in the business, and plan to continue in it when Ed retires, you've probably found your AC guys. And I bet that they'll haul away your old equipment either for free or darn close to it, unlike your warranty folks. And if they will really repair the leak, when they find it, for only $400, you've found your solution. What brand of equipment do they sell, just in case you want to replace your unit?
2. If your unit is a heat pump, won't you use it for heating over the winter, even a little bit, where you live? If so, "son's" recommendation of waiting until March may not be valid. If you only have to heat a couple of days all winter, then it's probably valid. Or you'll find out the coolant is all gone and you can only heat with the emergency (supplemental) heat strips, which will feel really warm but cost you an arm and a leg in electricity.
3. Have you been approved by the warranty company for a new system? Or has that yet to be determined? And if so, do they choose the contractor or do you? Will they write the payment check to you or only send it to the contractor? If they are sending you the check, you should be able to buy whatever you want and make up any shortfall. I think the tax credit ends Dec. 31st.

Oh, if you want to double check that you have a 5 ton unit, look on the specification label that is on the side or back of the compressor unit outside. Look for something called "LRA". That stands for Lock Rotor Amps, and it tells you how much power it takes to start the compressor. Also listed will be RLA. RLA is Running Load Amps, which is how much power it uses when it's running, and it will be a much lower number. Anyway, most 5 ton units I've seen will have an LRA of ~169. In general, it's 30 to 33 LRA's for each ton of cooling, so that a 3 ton unit will be ~90 to 99 LRA. If you have a Rheem unit, the label has been sun bleached and you won't be able to read it anymore. Happens to every single one of them that I've ever seen, including mine.

Oh, tell your husband that he also has a keeper! ;)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Any updates?

[bluebutton]

I love it when I give the right advice!

I love it too!! We would have been hosed out of 6400 if it weren't for you.

A couple of questions.
1. Did Ed & Sons charge you for the visit? Was it a sales call (usually free) or a service evaluation call (usual to charge a basic service call fee, even if they don't do anything - I paid my original installer $95 to tell me what was wrong with my blower motor that I had someone else replace)? If it was free for what he did, you've got a keeper there. And as long as the "Sons" are actively involved in the business, and plan to continue in it when Ed retires, you've probably found your AC guys. And I bet that they'll haul away your old equipment either for free or darn close to it, unlike your warranty folks. And if they will really repair the leak, when they find it, for only $400, you've found your solution. What brand of equipment do they sell, just in case you want to replace your unit?

Nope the guy wouldn't let me pay because he said we called for an estimate. I wanted to pay him though. He was great. They sell Trane mostly as far as I can tell -- that's the big logo on their cards.

2. If your unit is a heat pump, won't you use it for heating over the winter, even a little bit, where you live? If so, "son's" recommendation of waiting until March may not be valid. If you only have to heat a couple of days all winter, then it's probably valid. Or you'll find out the coolant is all gone and you can only heat with the emergency (supplemental) heat strips, which will feel really warm but cost you an arm and a leg in electricity.
3. Have you been approved by the warranty company for a new system? Or has that yet to be determined? And if so, do they choose the contractor or do you? Will they write the payment check to you or only send it to the contractor? If they are sending you the check, you should be able to buy whatever you want and make up any shortfall. I think the tax credit ends Dec. 31st.

As far as I can tell we don't have a heat pump system. It looks like there's a manual in the HVAC closet so I'll go take a look. We haven't been approved by the warranty company yet. I'm waiting to get 1 more quote in writing (I got it verbally) and then I'll move the ball with the warranty company again, sending them the two quote I got.
However, I think we're going to see how much more life we can get out of the current units. We may miss the tax credit which bugs me a little bit. But if Ed & Sons are as reliable as they seem, I don't mind having to do minor repairs every couple years over having the replace the whole system in the next couple months. We both drive old cars because we had a mechanic we trusted and we just budget to do repairs yearly vs buying a new car. I think we'll try that strategy here.

Oh, if you want to double check that you have a 5 ton unit, look on the specification label that is on the side or back of the compressor unit outside. Look for something called "LRA". That stands for Lock Rotor Amps, and it tells you how much power it takes to start the compressor. Also listed will be RLA. RLA is Running Load Amps, which is how much power it uses when it's running, and it will be a much lower number. Anyway, most 5 ton units I've seen will have an LRA of ~169. In general, it's 30 to 33 LRA's for each ton of cooling, so that a 3 ton unit will be ~90 to 99 LRA. If you have a Rheem unit, the label has been sun bleached and you won't be able to read it anymore. Happens to every single one of them that I've ever seen, including mine.

Well, everyone that came through said it was a 5 ton unit. But I will go look at the label. The unit is on the north side of the house and gets very little sunlight so for a 10 year old label it is in amazing condition.

Again thank you, thank you, thank you every one. You have been such a great bunch in our time of travails.
We're having a cold front coming through, I'm told, it's only in the mid 90s this week

Oh, tell your husband that he also has a keeper! ;)

[YmoBeThere]

So the full-priced CTN membership has paid dividends already!