The Official "WWWD?" Thread

[ArkieDukie]

I've never heard of a co-first author before... whose name goes first? Call me silly, but what exactly is the difference in terms of citations, responsibilities, etc...?

I'm co-first author on a paper. It indicates that the authors made equal contributions to the work. It's something that tends to happen in interdisciplinary work.

From the outside, my read is that BM's role is to boss the grad student around and tell her what to do. The grad student is a whole other story. She doesn't like to think for herself; she always wants someone else to do things for her or tell her exactly what she should do. She and BM have a bit of a symbiotic relationship, since BM likes to be in charge and tell people what to do. The kicker is, BM is currently bossing the grad student around in conducting an experiment that was my idea. I'm through feeding the monster.

What are the odds that BM is leaving me out of the loop because she feels threatened by me? She tries to make me look bad at any possible opportunity, which supports the theory somewhat, I think.

[Lavabe]

I've never heard of a co-first author before... whose name goes first? Call me silly, but what exactly is the difference in terms of citations, responsibilities, etc...?

I'm co-first author on a paper. It indicates that the authors made equal contributions to the work. It's something that tends to happen in interdisciplinary work.

From the outside, my read is that BM's role is to boss the grad student around and tell her what to do. The grad student is a whole other story. She doesn't like to think for herself; she always wants someone else to do things for her or tell her exactly what she should do. She and BM have a bit of a symbiotic relationship, since BM likes to be in charge and tell people what to do. The kicker is, BM is currently bossing the grad student around in conducting an experiment that was my idea. I'm through feeding the monster.

What are the odds that BM is leaving me out of the loop because she feels threatened by me? She tries to make me look bad at any possible opportunity, which supports the theory somewhat, I think.

1) Grad student is not your grad student.
2) In general, I loathe people bossing around grad students, and then hording the credit of their work. This issue seems to be a little different from that.

I'd discuss with BM's boss what exactly is the exact polcy regarding authorships and grad students, so that you'll know in the future how to respond properly and to collaborate more effectively with others. I would also suggest that you are on the outside... you're not a part of their lab. They would probably counter with the fact that they put you on as an author at THEIR prerogative.

When it's in your lab, that's one thing. But if the work was done elsewhere, then it's their choice as to whom gets the lead authorships.
;)

[Lavabe]

Ugh... late night postings complete with typos.

You know, your reputation as a collaborator is something good out of all of this. And I would do everything to make sure that rep remains intact.

The #1 goal is NOT to remove BM as co-1st. The #1 goal is to figure a way to collaborate better and more efficiently with BM's boss's lab. Take BM completely out of the picture.

The person who has potentilly suffered the most from this is the grad student. Then again, the project was stalled, and you helped unstall it. For you AND the grad student, that's great.

I'd go and set up a meeting with BM's boss to get clarification on the role of the grad student in collaborations. To do so will give you a better idea as to how to establish future collaborations, and set ground rules for authorships and future contributions.

The ideal situation is to have these discussions before you offer an idea. I work with another researcher, and we usually establish authorships and responsibilities well in advance of actually writing. It works well. Then again, it's only the two of us. You're in a larger setting.

[windsor]

Sorry I'm late responding...my weekend was eaten up with this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/0 ... 97285.html

I am a bit handicapped by my lack of knowledge regarding the finer points of research publications/posters.

Given that you are still new, I would let this poster thing slide (what the hell is a poster anyway?) for now. I would focus my attentions on other things, particularly with those folks who "want to work with me"...and would not be jumping in to save the day on anything BM is involved in unless asked for assistance.

I think Lavabe is right on all points - it couldn't hurt define the collaborative roles and have a chat with BMs boss.

Oh, and the Grad Student is NOT in your problem tree. Step away from the grad student....

[ArkieDukie]

Sorry I'm late responding...my weekend was eaten up with this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/0 ... 97285.html

I am a bit handicapped by my lack of knowledge regarding the finer points of research publications/posters.

Given that you are still new, I would let this poster thing slide (what the hell is a poster anyway?) for now. I would focus my attentions on other things, particularly with those folks who "want to work with me"...and would not be jumping in to save the day on anything BM is involved in unless asked for assistance.

I think Lavabe is right on all points - it couldn't hurt define the collaborative roles and have a chat with BMs boss.

Oh, and the Grad Student is NOT in your problem tree. Step away from the grad student....

Thanks! Yeah, grad student is not my problem, and she may not be anyone's problem here for much longer. She turned in a fairly major program requirement (research proposal) this morning. It was due on Friday. Incapable of independent thought AND unable to finish assigned tasks in a timely manner. Yep, this person wants the boot from the graduate program.

The poster thing is definitely not worth fighting over. The upcoming manuscript, on the other hand, is another matter altogether. The plan is to feature the work in an upcoming special issue of a fairly prestigious journal. If I end up doing as much data analysis as I think I'm going to be doing, I'll insist on first authorship - or, at least shared first authorship. I believe the grad student will not be in the picture. BarMinion will likely pitch a fit, because she will want it all to herself. Based on what I've seen, though, BM is incapable of writing a legible scientific paper (she can barely speak English). Seems to me like data analysis and translation from BM to English should give me first authorship. This is a conversation I will be having when the appropriate time comes.

[ArkieDukie]

Sorry I'm late responding...my weekend was eaten up with this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/05/0 ... 97285.html

I am a bit handicapped by my lack of knowledge regarding the finer points of research publications/posters.

Given that you are still new, I would let this poster thing slide (what the hell is a poster anyway?) for now. I would focus my attentions on other things, particularly with those folks who "want to work with me"...and would not be jumping in to save the day on anything BM is involved in unless asked for assistance.

I think Lavabe is right on all points - it couldn't hurt define the collaborative roles and have a chat with BMs boss.

Oh, and the Grad Student is NOT in your problem tree. Step away from the grad student....

Thanks! Yeah, grad student is not my problem, and she may not be anyone's problem here for much longer. She turned in a fairly major program requirement (research proposal) this morning. It was due on Friday. Incapable of independent thought AND unable to finish assigned tasks in a timely manner. Yep, this person wants the boot from the graduate program.

The poster thing is definitely not worth fighting over. The upcoming manuscript, on the other hand, is another matter altogether. The plan is to feature the work in an upcoming special issue of a fairly prestigious journal. If I end up doing as much data analysis as I think I'm going to be doing, I'll insist on first authorship - or, at least shared first authorship. I believe the grad student will not be in the picture. BarMinion will likely pitch a fit, because she will want it all to herself. Based on what I've seen, though, BM is incapable of writing a legible scientific paper (she can barely speak English). Seems to me like data analysis and translation from BM to English should give me first authorship. This is a conversation I will be having when the appropriate time comes.

Update time: as I suspected, my colleague kicked the grad student out of her group. She's now looking for a new home. I got a phone call this morning from said grad student, and she wants to work for my boss with me as a co-advisor. Crappity, crappity, crap. I told her that I wouldn't have time with everything I've got going on but that I'd talk with my boss to see what he has in mind. Have not done so yet.

I had an extensive conversation with her via telephone and had to close my door at one point. The reason? She went off on BM and, while I was being as diplomatic as possible, I did not want to be overheard. The grad student claims that she was sabotaged by BM. You know that joint project we've been working on? The one that was supposedly the grad student's project? BM hid the data files, the lab relevant lab notebooks, and the samples. Basically, she's blocking the grad student from accessing her work. The grad student made the claim (without any prompting from me) that BM has been trying to edge her out of the project since her arrival in the lab (grad student was there before BM). Based on what I have seen, I think there's some truth to her claims. However, I think the grad student is not as innocent as she claims. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

I'm in a majorly tricky spot here. My first instinct is to run as quickly as possible in the opposite direction, but there's a part of me that's tempted to help the grad student by supervising her as she finishes her project. I suspect it may be the best chance for both of us to get the credit we deserve on a project that BM is trying to commandeer as her own. Politically, though, it would probably cause problems with my colleague (BM's boss), and the grad student is a bit of a problem child. Thoughts on what I should do? When I talk to my boss, should I tell him my suspicions about BM's behavior? Should I help her finish the project "out of the goodness of my heart" so that BM and the grad student won't have to work together, thus performing an end-run around BM? Should I run in the opposite direction and use my ballooning workload as an excuse?

Why the HECK do I always end up working with these people? Opportunistic backstabbers seem to flock to my field, drat the luck. I'd love to throw NuBarbie, Supervisor Barbie, The Minion, and BarMinion into a lab together and let them fight it out. That could be entertaining. First one off the island would be Supervisor Barbie. I suspect NuBarbie might be next. After that, all bets are off, but I can't think of two people who deserve each other more than The Minion and BarMinion.

[YmoBeThere]

Hmm, makes me kinda happy to be working in the "business" world...

[bluebutton]

Without the past history, would you work with this grad student if he/she interviewed with you out of the blue?

I wouldn't sign on with an apparent "problem child" if there were a way around it.

[Lavabe]

Grad student needs a WWWD? thread of her own.

Sounds like BM has already comandeered things. What makes you feel you'd get the files from her?

Surely there is some sort of grad school supervisory board to investigate any alleged worker misconduct against a grad student, right?

[ArkieDukie]

Grad student needs a WWWD? thread of her own.

Sounds like BM has already comandeered things. What makes you feel you'd get the files from her?

Surely there is some sort of grad school supervisory board to investigate any alleged worker misconduct against a grad student, right?

The grad student has spoken with the appropriate people in the dept. Problem is, it's her word vs BM's. I'm likely the only person who would back her at all, and that wouldn't be 100%. I believe that the grad student's helpless act did feed right into BM's manipulative nature, allowing her to push the grad student out of the way. Hard lesson for the grad student, but there it is. She's working on pushing me out of the way, too, but I'm on to her, and I have documentation on the ideas that she's trying to claim as her own.

Regarding the project, I think the original idea may have come from my boss. It's his area of research moreso than my colleague's, and my boss is the dept chair. BM would be in a world of trouble if she tried to withhold data and samples from the dept chair.

[ArkieDukie]

Without the past history, would you work with this grad student if he/she interviewed with you out of the blue?

I wouldn't sign on with an apparent "problem child" if there were a way around it.

This person did a rotation in my boss' lab; he's not a fan. I know her ways a bit too well. The only way it would have a chance is if I sit her down right from the outset and tell her I'm on to her and her game won't work with me. I'd probably have to remind her of this quite frequently. I'm not sure it's worth the drama for me.

[windsor]

If the original idea was your boss's (and it is a 'pet project' of his) that changes the game.

If it were me I would speak to my boss. I would tell him that HGS (Helpless Grad Student) had approached you wondering if you would serve as co-advisor on the project (along with him). I would say that it is your 'understanding' that HGS has some 'issues' with BM, clearly stating that you are not sure what they are, nor is it any of your concern (important to NOT sling mud here!!) I would further tell him that while your workload would prevent you from serving as HGS's advisor on a long term basis (I would not have the time to give her the attention and guidance she deserves) you would hate to to see this particular project flounder with so much work already done. Sooooo...you would be willing to step in as co-advisor so see the project through to completion. Make sure you say that your one 'reservation' is that you do not wish to cause bad blood between you and BM, and that you do not want it to appear that you are undermining BM in any way. (try not laugh out loud when you say that part)

Then drop the whole sorted mess in Bosses lap.

You look like a 'team player', you smack down any accusations from BM over cutting her out by addressing it yourself out of the box.

[Lavabe]

If your boss is up for taking on HGS w you, you will undoubtedly have to figure out authorships on things.
But that's a conversation down the road.
You will also need a conversation about who's in charge. Who has what responsibilities?

[windsor]

If your boss is up for taking on HGS w you, you will undoubtedly have to figure out authorships on things.
But that's a conversation down the road.
You will also need a conversation about who's in charge. Who has what responsibilities?

Lavabe is spot on (being in the 'business world' I don't think about things like authorship...its not in issue for me). Defining responsibilities clearly will be important. There is the (good) chance that Boss will want to have none of it, in which case you still look like a team player for offering AND your off the hook with HGS since it was the Boss that nixed it.

[ArkieDukie]

Boss is working on a grant and put off the meeting with HGS until next Wednesday. Hopefully I'll have a chance to chat with him before then. HGS called again today to see if I had talked with my boss yet and to generally be a pain. Pendulum is swinging back toward "run fast and far in the opposite direction."

[ArkieDukie]

We had a fun-filled meeting today; there was some discussion of HGS's former project and what needs to be done to finish it. BM promptly chimed in with her opinion that we not proceed with (one of my ideas) because it didn't work. I politely responded that we couldn't really say that it didn't work because 'we' had not really changed the conditions for the second experiment in order to do the necessary optimization. I then asked for the data files for the second experiment. BM's response was that she would give them to me when I could show that my analysis gave good results for the data files I already have. Keep in mind she's preventing me from having data files on an experiment that I proposed.

Despite the fact that she REALLY pissed me off, I managed to keep my cool. I immediately asked her how she would define 'good results.' BM's response was that my results had to be the same as, or better than, hers. I asked if she had manually validated her results; she said she didn't have time to do so but HGS had done so. (Which then prompted a discussion of how the work should be repeated.) i smiled politely and talked calmly the entire time. The meeting concluded with BM's boss telling her to give me the data files.

I think I handled things better than BM - in fact, I'd like to think BM failed WTA. Seriously, someone who botched the data analysis so badly that the project was stalled is going to tell me how I should be doing it? My read here is that BM is still trying to edge me out of the project. She's trying to toss an experiment that was my idea to begin with, and she's trying to block me from getting data files for an experiment that was my idea. It appears that I won this round, which will likely tick her off to no end. I should beware of escalation/retaliation.

I'm trying to decide on a plan of action, and I have an idea that I want to bounce off the quorum. I want to first talk to my boss about getting instrument time, then I want to propose to my colleague that I take over the part of the project that BM is trying to cut (a special instrument method for identifying a particular modification). After all, she doesn't feel that it's an avenue worth pursuing. I think I can couch this in such a way that it will fly with my colleague, and using someone else's instrument will allow me to take BM out of the picture completely. My boss has some biological samples that would be ideal to use for the purpose of applying the method. Boom, a paper, and BM would be out of the picture. And, if I somehow end up supervising HGS, this could be her project. BM's head would explode.

Thoughts? Suggestions?

[OZZIE4DUKE]

1. Is HGS good enough to work for you, on this or any project? If so, fine. If not, why ask for trouble?

2. Go into your bosses office and pitch a hissy fit. Tell him/her "you created my position and hired me because I'm good and you know I'm good and you wanted me to do what I'm good at doing, and now I have to put up with the same BS that I had at the old job? NO! This ends here and now! You tell BM to take her jealous, petty bullshit ass and keep it out of my way!"

Well, that's how I'd handle the situation. I imagine you'll get some differing opinions from other members of the quorum...

[Lavabe]

1. Is HGS good enough to work for you, on this or any project? If so, fine. If not, why ask for trouble?

2. Go into your bosses office and pitch a hissy fit. Tell him/her "you created my position and hired me because I'm good and you know I'm good and you wanted me to do what I'm good at doing, and now I have to put up with the same BS that I had at the old job? NO! This ends here and now! You tell BM to take her jealous, petty bullshit ass and keep it out of my way!"

Well, that's how I'd handle the situation. I imagine you'll get some differing opinions from other members of the quorum...

#1 Point: Agreed with Ozzie, except under one condition... if Boss wants to take in HGS, go with Boss.

#2 Point: The WTA test is your guidepost; the Ozzie approach would not work well with WTA. More importantly, you do NOT besmirch the previous employer (does NOT go well with new employer). The "and now I have to ..." part is a no-no. BM isn't worth the energy. In the meantime, email and confirm things. Keep doing what you do. As sure as Venus is transiting the sun tomorrow, BM will lose all cred over her next few attempts at pulling her BS.


Hey... do what windsor would do!

[Turk]

While all the drama is fun reading, ultimately it's distracting and it's not doing you any good. You are still the newbie, even if a well-qualified agent of change newbie. In addition to the WTA mantra, I suggest the second commandment is Get Things Done (GTD - hey, that would make a great title for a book! Or maybe a "countrified" version could be a tagline for a redneck comedian shtick!)

Anyway, I disagree with our esteemed Paradigm's suggestion to throw the nuclear hissy fit, as tempting and soul-cleansing as that might be. Forget about exploding heads, too. Just GTD and make sure you're exceeding your boss' expectations. Go ahead and ask your boss for the instrument time. I'm not sure I follow all the lab instrument jargon, but If you see a research path that looks promising and the boss is OK with using the samples, follow it and see where it leads. If it turns into a paper, fine. If it's a dead end, fine. Isn't that what research is all about? Since BM has a different boss, ignore her as long you and your own boss are on the same page.

HGS should be evaluated as a separate issue. If she can do the work given proper mentoring, defining of roles, and setting of expectations, then I'd be willing to take the risk. Maybe a little guidance and honest communication will help HGS grow and be a major part of her educational experience. If HGS can't cut it, then maybe she needs to think about a different line of work.

Get out of the drama business, focus on GTD and develop a strong working relationship with your boss.

[ArkieDukie]

While all the drama is fun reading, ultimately it's distracting and it's not doing you any good. You are still the newbie, even if a well-qualified agent of change newbie. In addition to the WTA mantra, I suggest the second commandment is Get Things Done (GTD - hey, that would make a great title for a book! Or maybe a "countrified" version could be a tagline for a redneck comedian shtick!)

Anyway, I disagree with our esteemed Paradigm's suggestion to throw the nuclear hissy fit, as tempting and soul-cleansing as that might be. Forget about exploding heads, too. Just GTD and make sure you're exceeding your boss' expectations. Go ahead and ask your boss for the instrument time. I'm not sure I follow all the lab instrument jargon, but If you see a research path that looks promising and the boss is OK with using the samples, follow it and see where it leads. If it turns into a paper, fine. If it's a dead end, fine. Isn't that what research is all about? Since BM has a different boss, ignore her as long you and your own boss are on the same page.

HGS should be evaluated as a separate issue. If she can do the work given proper mentoring, defining of roles, and setting of expectations, then I'd be willing to take the risk. Maybe a little guidance and honest communication will help HGS grow and be a major part of her educational experience. If HGS can't cut it, then maybe she needs to think about a different line of work.

Get out of the drama business, focus on GTD and develop a strong working relationship with your boss.

Excellent advice, O turkish one. I should clarify something: GTD is precisely WHY I want to sweetly volunteer to do the experiment that BM deems unworthy of her time. If I'm reading her correctly, she doesn't want to do it because 1) it wasn't her idea, and 2) she'd be forced to include me and another person in something that she views as HER project. She really has the project as a result of a hostile takeover, but that's another issue. I think my idea has merit, but I'll never know if it can be made to work because BM is not willing to make it happen. BM's boss is a collaborator on the project, so I need to play nicely with her. However, the drama that is present at the moment is (IMHO) due to BM's antics. I'm hoping that finding a way to work around her will GTD and remove the drama. And, yes, there's every chance in the world that my idea won't work. It's definitely not going to work, though, if the person doing the experiment doesn't want it to work.

The problem with HGS is that she would bring her own brand of drama to the equation. I've already decided that, if the boss decides to bring HGS on-board, I'll be having a Come to Jesus chat with her about her behavior - with the boss' blessing, of course. I'm not sure HGS realizes that I'm on to her, and it may be time for her to find that out. Even if she doesn't end up working under my direction, I may need to have that chat with her in as non-confrontational a manner as possible. Not my favorite thing to do, but the academicians in the crowd will recognize that sometimes those conversations are a necessary evil. HGS seems to have latched onto me, so I may be the only person who can have this particular conversation with her. Darn the luck.

ETA: I'm collaborating with BM's boss in several projects. My role is data analysis. BM, in not giving me data files, is keeping me from doing my job. I'm hoping BM's boss "encourages" her to get over her attitude since it's not constructive to the research enterprise as a whole. It may not sound like it, but I'm really trying to get my point across with as little drama as possible. Screaming hissie fits is drama. Drama makes for fun stories but not for fun work environment. WTA: it works!