an interesting dilemma...

[ArkieDukie]

The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

That's very good advice, Lavabe. Thanks! I may have to go with the diplomatic "philosophical differences" answer for the time being. That, and the fact that I need a crystal ball and/or a Ouija board in order to figure out what my job responsibilites are from one day to the next.

[CathyCA]

The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

Quoting myself for emphasis here:

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

[ArkieDukie]

The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

Quoting myself for emphasis here:

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

Cathy, Lavabe is on the money here. Even if I don't mention my boss's name, my field is a small one. EVERYONE knows my boss, and he knows everyone. I could get away with telling about Pushy PI and The Minion without mentioning names, but it would be difficult to tell the story without saying that my boss sided with them. I'll have to be very careful what I say about my current working environment, in fact, so I will need to put a lot of thought and planning into an answer to that very question.

[Lavabe]

Quoting myself for emphasis here:

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

I don't think you should EVER name the names, or even allude about folks on the team, but speaking towards your strengths and what YOU are looking for is always a wise strategy. Be forthright about your strengths and what you are looking for in terms of whatever job you're applying to.

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

Since your boss's ethics and attitude are nothing to be admired, and since the area is so small and he knows everybody and everybody knows him, chances are his reputation precedes him. You probably won't have to elaborate much about your working environment when in an interview .
Love, Ima

[DukieInKansas]

In the meantime, I'm sending some additional shin kicks to Pushy PI, Minion, and boss. How high should I be aiming?

[ArkieDukie]

Forgot to reply earlier, DinK, but feel free to aim wherever!

I have an amusing update to this messy saga. Remember the value that was included, despite the fact that it fell outside of the acceptance criteria that I calculated (mean +/- 2*standard deviation)? The one I said was wrong? The one that they ultimately tossed my acceptance criteria in order to include? Well, as it turns out, I figured out today that their assignment WAS wrong. I looked back at a different database search and found that the value in question was assigned to a completely different protein. As an added bonus, the new value is much more consistent with my acceptance criteria.

I believe that I am obligated to pass this piece of information along to my former collaborators. If they choose to ignore this particular piece of information, then they are DEFINITELY guilty of data falsification. I will likely have to write multiple drafts of the e-mail message in order for it to be diplomatic. The high road is definitely in order. I think I should tell my boss before I tell Pushy PI and The Minion. In fact, I think I should let my boss tell Pushy PI and The Minion.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

[ArkieDukie]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

"You're off that project. Why are you wasting your time looking at data on something you're not supposed to be working on?" That very well could be the reaction you get from your boss IF you tell him your findings... So why were you working on it? Silence is golden!

[ArkieDukie]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

"You're off that project. Why are you wasting your time looking at data on something you're not supposed to be working on?" That very well could be the reaction you get from your boss IF you tell him your findings... So why were you working on it? Silence is golden!

That's somewhat related to what my friend said. The answer to "why was I working on it?" is that I was satisfying my own intellectual curiousity. I now know, without a doubt, that I was right. They don't need to know. Chances are, they don't want to know anyway. Now I can REALLY sit back and enjoy the fireworks if their manuscript is rejected because the reviewers catch all the points that they ignored me on.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.
There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

"You're off that project. Why are you wasting your time looking at data on something you're not supposed to be working on?" That very well could be the reaction you get from your boss IF you tell him your findings... So why were you working on it? Silence is golden!

That's somewhat related to what my friend said. The answer to "why was I working on it?" is that I was satisfying my own intellectual curiousity. I now know, without a doubt, that I was right. They don't need to know. Chances are, they don't want to know anyway. Now I can REALLY sit back and enjoy the fireworks if their manuscript is rejected because the reviewers catch all the points that they ignored me on.

Can you anonymously get the reviewers your data? Or alert them to the problems that exist with the data as presented?

[Lavabe]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

It's getting tough to follow.
Are you indeed officially OFF the project? Have you been told as such? Or are they just not meeting with you, and no official word was ever sent to you?

Were the data sent to you while you were on the project or afterwards?

[ArkieDukie]

Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

It's getting tough to follow.
Are you indeed officially OFF the project? Have you been told as such? Or are they just not meeting with you, and no official word was ever sent to you?

Were the data sent to you while you were on the project or afterwards?

AFAIK I'm off. The only notification I received was my boss telling me the meetings were canceled indefinitely. He's still meeting with them, but I'm definitely not invited.

This is not new data. It's new analysis of the data used in the paper - specifically, one spectrum. It's something I wanted to do before the manuscript went out; it just didn't happen. It's a good spectrum and a poor match for what it's assigned to in the manuscript. It wasn't assigned to the protein of interest when searched against a database containing the protein of interest plus a few other proteins. I found the match in a search against a database of all rat proteins (species of their protein, which is somehow appropriate). The sample was allegedly a purified protein, "so it couldn't contain anything else." Another of those arguments I gave up on long ago.

[Lavabe]

It's getting tough to follow.
Are you indeed officially OFF the project? Have you been told as such? Or are they just not meeting with you, and no official word was ever sent to you?

Were the data sent to you while you were on the project or afterwards?

AFAIK I'm off. The only notification I received was my boss telling me the meetings were canceled indefinitely. He's still meeting with them, but I'm definitely not invited.

This is not new data. It's new analysis of the data used in the paper - specifically, one spectrum. It's something I wanted to do before the manuscript went out; it just didn't happen. It's a good spectrum and a poor match for what it's assigned to in the manuscript. It wasn't assigned to the protein of interest when searched against a database containing the protein of interest plus a few other proteins. I found the match in a search against a database of all rat proteins (species of their protein, which is somehow appropriate). The sample was allegedly a purified protein, "so it couldn't contain anything else." Another of those arguments I gave up on long ago.

So, you were never given any official word. It sounds like you are still on that project; you have not been relieved of your duties (just that the meeting portion is no longer part of your job).

I would suggest emailing your boss whether or not he wants any further criticism/evaluation of those data. If he says yes, email it to him, and offer a direct meeting with him if he has any questions/concerns. If he says no, consult with the integrity people.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Don't email him the results. Print them out and toss them on his desk, saying "I did this (on my own time) and thought you might find the results interesting." Turn, walk out and go back to your desk.

[DukieInKansas]

I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

[ArkieDukie]

I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

My opinion is swinging back to telling them, DinK, for all of the reasons that you cite. I really do think I have a moral/ethical obligation to pass along my recent findings. What they decide to do with the new information is up to them. I'll supplement with lots of evidence documenting why this particular assignment is reasonable and send it "for your consideration."

[DukieInKansas]

I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

My opinion is swinging back to telling them, DinK, for all of the reasons that you cite. I really do think I have a moral/ethical obligation to pass along my recent findings. What they decide to do with the new information is up to them. I'll supplement with lots of evidence documenting why this particular assignment is reasonable and send it "for your consideration."

I'll give you the graduation advice I have been sharing this year - you must be able to look yourself in the eye each morning so think of that when you are making those late night (or not so late night) decisions.

[Lavabe]

I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

My opinion is swinging back to telling them, DinK, for all of the reasons that you cite. I really do think I have a moral/ethical obligation to pass along my recent findings. What they decide to do with the new information is up to them. I'll supplement with lots of evidence documenting why this particular assignment is reasonable and send it "for your consideration."

I'll give you the graduation advice I have been sharing this year - you must be able to look yourself in the eye each morning so think of that when you are making those late night (or not so late night) decisions.

I'm with DinK on this one.