an interesting dilemma...

[OZZIE4DUKE]

i should totally be asleep, but I'm not.

1) AD, being newly out of academia/research and just off the ph with a fmr colleague who's really steamed at my fmr PI, I am sympathetic to your plight.

2) The reason I am posting is to say your choice of "The Minion" has been perhaps my favorite part of this thread (other than the seeming turn of the tide in your direction) and that has only been topped by the addition of Minionettes.

Woohoo! May the force be with you, both regarding this paper and your job hunt.

bluebutton! Nice to have you posting again! How's the AC system doing?

[ArkieDukie]

Oh, the other major tell: she threw in the "I learned this in med school" point. In my experience, many people who have obtained MDs in certain parts of the world REALLY look down on PhDs and treat them as intellectual inferiors. I didn't realize before that The Minion received her MD before coming to the US. This is not meant to be a blanket statement for all people from her native country, but most of the people who have been condescending about my being PhD rather than MD are from the same country as she. I think this might explain her behavior with regard to data interpretation. For the last 3 years, when she doesn't agree with the answer I give her, she goes over my head. Her boss is MD; my boss is MD/PhD.

That DOES explain a lot.

Have you noticed a similar attitude, or is this only prevalent in my field?

[Lavabe]

Oh, the other major tell: she threw in the "I learned this in med school" point. In my experience, many people who have obtained MDs in certain parts of the world REALLY look down on PhDs and treat them as intellectual inferiors. I didn't realize before that The Minion received her MD before coming to the US. This is not meant to be a blanket statement for all people from her native country, but most of the people who have been condescending about my being PhD rather than MD are from the same country as she. I think this might explain her behavior with regard to data interpretation. For the last 3 years, when she doesn't agree with the answer I give her, she goes over my head. Her boss is MD; my boss is MD/PhD.

That DOES explain a lot.

Have you noticed a similar attitude, or is this only prevalent in my field?

There are all sorts of rivalries between people in different disciplines. I think sometimes you get more rivalries with the medical fields, and you also have the complicating factor of the people who have joint MD/PhDs.

I've seen that among some parents of students, medical degrees are valued highest. PhDs are viewed as a lower degree, something to get when you can't get an MD.

[ArkieDukie]

I've seen that among some parents of students, medical degrees are valued highest. PhDs are viewed as a lower degree, something to get when you can't get an MD.

I have experienced that as well. This attitude was prevalent at my undergraduate institution - not among the faculty members, but among other science students. Many of my classmates assumed I went to grad school because I couldn't get into med school. I didn't want to go to med school, and lots of people did not understand that. I saw the same attitude when I was teaching. In fact, I knew a student whose father wouldn't pay for his undergrad degree unless he was pre-med.

[wilson]

Condescending wrongness is the worst kind of wrongness.

[ArkieDukie]

Today is normally our meeting day with Pushy PI and The Minion. My boss left shortly before meeting time and returned shortly after our normal meeting time. No sign of Pushy PI and The Minion. When my boss returned, I asked him about our meeting. He told me that the meetings were canceled. My guess is that I'm off the project, and that he met with Pushy PI and The Minion at Pushy PI's office. Guess she REALLY didn't like it when I caught her most recent mistake. I'm torn between being annoyed that my boss has left me out of the loop (as usual) and thrilled that I don't have to deal with them any more.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Today is normally our meeting day with Pushy PI and The Minion. My boss left shortly before meeting time and returned shortly after our normal meeting time. No sign of Pushy PI and The Minion. When my boss returned, I asked him about our meeting. He told me that the meetings were canceled. My guess is that I'm off the project, and that he met with Pushy PI and The Minion at Pushy PI's office. Guess she REALLY didn't like it when I caught her most recent mistake. I'm torn between being annoyed that my boss has left me out of the loop (as usual) and thrilled that I don't have to deal with them any more.

Depending on how far you feel like pushing it, and I certainly don't want to hasten your departure nor push you into doing something you are not comfortable in doing, I'd ask the ass hole if you are still on the project and if you should still (or alternately how hard) you should be looking for a job. But again, this is optional. You could also have a 3rd party (an ally) inquire for you, especially the first question.

[DukePA]

I've seen that among some parents of students, medical degrees are valued highest. PhDs are viewed as a lower degree, something to get when you can't get an MD.

I have experienced that as well. This attitude was prevalent at my undergraduate institution - not among the faculty members, but among other science students. Many of my classmates assumed I went to grad school because I couldn't get into med school. I didn't want to go to med school, and lots of people did not understand that. I saw the same attitude when I was teaching. In fact, I knew a student whose father wouldn't pay for his undergrad degree unless he was pre-med.

Imagine how it felt to be a PA student on clinical rotations. Internal medicine was the worst because we were assigned to a team that included one PA student, a second year medical student (who had the same amount of formal education, but less hands-on patient care experience than we did at that point), an intern, a resident and an attending Dr. I had to explain to the med student on my team that we were both going to practice medicine and that we needed experience with procedures as much as they did. She actually told me she didn't realize PAs have medical licenses or could write prescriptions. This was especially disturbing because the Physician Assistant profession was created at Duke! You would think that medical students at Duke would be aware of this fact. Geez. Anyway, my favorite rotation ended up being surgery because I was assigned to the abdominal transplant team and was treated with respect by all the attendings, fellow, anesthesiologists and resident. Surgery is typically the most brutal rotation, but mine was awesome!

Occasionally a patient will ask me when I'm going to be a doctor. I tell the truth and say, "never." If I had started school when I was younger, I would have loved to have attended medical school, but if I had chosen that route, I would still be in my residency instead of practicing. Ick. The thought of being a 3rd year resident at this time gives me the hives All that being said though, I have a great deal of admiration for those who earn their PhD. What an intense accomplishment. I also have a great deal of admiration for those MDs who are not condescending or arrogant. I find they are typically the best clinicians and teachers.

[ArkieDukie]

Today is normally our meeting day with Pushy PI and The Minion. My boss left shortly before meeting time and returned shortly after our normal meeting time. No sign of Pushy PI and The Minion. When my boss returned, I asked him about our meeting. He told me that the meetings were canceled. My guess is that I'm off the project, and that he met with Pushy PI and The Minion at Pushy PI's office. Guess she REALLY didn't like it when I caught her most recent mistake. I'm torn between being annoyed that my boss has left me out of the loop (as usual) and thrilled that I don't have to deal with them any more.

Depending on how far you feel like pushing it, and I certainly don't want to hasten your departure nor push you into doing something you are not comfortable in doing, I'd ask the ass hole if you are still on the project and if you should still (or alternately how hard) you should be looking for a job. But again, this is optional. You could also have a 3rd party (an ally) inquire for you, especially the first question.

After the previously mentioned discussion, I sent an e-mail to my boss, asking to schedule a meeting to discuss job responsibilities. He sent me back a list of projects. Dude will not meet with me to discuss the issue, and I've tried. Annoying and frustrating.

[DukePA]

Today is normally our meeting day with Pushy PI and The Minion. My boss left shortly before meeting time and returned shortly after our normal meeting time. No sign of Pushy PI and The Minion. When my boss returned, I asked him about our meeting. He told me that the meetings were canceled. My guess is that I'm off the project, and that he met with Pushy PI and The Minion at Pushy PI's office. Guess she REALLY didn't like it when I caught her most recent mistake. I'm torn between being annoyed that my boss has left me out of the loop (as usual) and thrilled that I don't have to deal with them any more.

Depending on how far you feel like pushing it, and I certainly don't want to hasten your departure nor push you into doing something you are not comfortable in doing, I'd ask the ass hole if you are still on the project and if you should still (or alternately how hard) you should be looking for a job. But again, this is optional. You could also have a 3rd party (an ally) inquire for you, especially the first question.

After the previously mentioned discussion, I sent an e-mail to my boss, asking to schedule a meeting to discuss job responsibilities. He sent me back a list of projects. Dude will not meet with me to discuss the issue, and I've tried. Annoying and frustrating.

Sounds like a limp appendage, no spherical dangles, putz to me. Hmmm, should we introduce the ass wipe to Ezzmarellda??? I do believe she could tear him another rectal orifice to help him get rid of all the extra shit he's carrying around.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Today is normally our meeting day with Pushy PI and The Minion. My boss left shortly before meeting time and returned shortly after our normal meeting time. No sign of Pushy PI and The Minion. When my boss returned, I asked him about our meeting. He told me that the meetings were canceled. My guess is that I'm off the project, and that he met with Pushy PI and The Minion at Pushy PI's office. Guess she REALLY didn't like it when I caught her most recent mistake. I'm torn between being annoyed that my boss has left me out of the loop (as usual) and thrilled that I don't have to deal with them any more.

Depending on how far you feel like pushing it, and I certainly don't want to hasten your departure nor push you into doing something you are not comfortable in doing, I'd ask the ass hole if you are still on the project and if you should still (or alternately how hard) you should be looking for a job. But again, this is optional. You could also have a 3rd party (an ally) inquire for you, especially the first question.

After the previously mentioned discussion, I sent an e-mail to my boss, asking to schedule a meeting to discuss job responsibilities. He sent me back a list of projects. Dude will not meet with me to discuss the issue, and I've tried. Annoying and frustrating.

On your way out the door the last time, spray paint F O and D on his door. Or on his car windows.

[Lavabe]

Surely each member on this project has gone through IRB training, yes?

And don't call me Shirley.

Hopefully, the latest shenanigans are documented on email. If they say anything like a meeting is cancelled, get it in email.

[Very Duke Blue]

I'm so glad I'm retired.

[captmojo]

I'm so glad I'm retired.

I live for the day I can finally proclaim myself to be a 'Gentleman of Leisure'.

Now would be a great time... ...Too early, damnit!

[DukeUsul]

I've seen that among some parents of students, medical degrees are valued highest. PhDs are viewed as a lower degree, something to get when you can't get an MD.

I have experienced that as well. This attitude was prevalent at my undergraduate institution - not among the faculty members, but among other science students. Many of my classmates assumed I went to grad school because I couldn't get into med school. I didn't want to go to med school, and lots of people did not understand that. I saw the same attitude when I was teaching. In fact, I knew a student whose father wouldn't pay for his undergrad degree unless he was pre-med.

First off, let me say AD that I'm sending all the vibes I can your way that this resolves in the best way possible for you.

As some of you know Mrs. Usul just started a new job at a prestigious children's hospital. She's a psychologist (PhD). She recounted a story to me about a previous PhD psychologist who started there, and a psychiatrist (MD) walked into this person's new window office - when MD found out that PhD was a PhD, he said "Oh, I thought the window offices were all reserved for psychiatrists?" I got nervous thinking she walked into one of these situations where all the MDs look down on the PhDs. Luckily she said the head of the psychiatry department is on a mission to change the attitude. I think Mrs. Usul will in fact be getting a window office, once they move some folks around.

My wife was under a lot of pressure from her parents to become a doctor. Of course, she's Dr. Usul now but as her mom once said (long ago) - that's not a "real" doctor. I think that attitude still gets to her. Of course if anyone ever says that, just let em know that the honorific Doctor has been used for centuries longer with professors/teachers and only extremely recently with physicians.

[ArkieDukie]

The Minion met with my boss today during the normally scheduled meeting time. Pushy PI was out of town, and The Minion had some questions for my boss regarding the manuscript. The office door was closed and I wasn't invited to attend.

The Minion called me two different times this afternoon to ask me asinine questions about the manuscript. Apparently Pushy PI edited the data analysis section that I rewrote because they made such a mess of it, and The Minion managed to mess up my references. I'm supposed to be getting a draft of the paper today or this weekend. I'm not even going to look at it until Monday. I can't imagine what a mess those imbeciles made in rewriting a section they clearly don't even understand, and I don't intend to spoil my weekend by looking at it. It took me most of the day last Friday to rewrite because it was such a mess to begin with.

My boss thought their version was a disaster, too. He could redline if they messed it back up. That could be fun.

(The term "redline" is our lab code for one of my boss's flashes of temper - would love to see that aimed at Pushy PI and The Minion rather than at me. )

[Ima Facultiwyfe]

I'm beginning to feel sorry for the paper itself!!! Poor thing. It's been shoved back and forth and rubbed out and rewritten so many times it must be downright sore and exhausted! I can just hear it hollering, "Why can't you folks make up your rabbit minds? Whaddaya want from me?!" Bless it's heart. You are right to give it the weekend off!
Love, Ima

[ArkieDukie]

I'm beginning to feel sorry for the paper itself!!! Poor thing. It's been shoved back and forth and rubbed out and rewritten so many times it must be downright sore and exhausted! I can just hear it hollering, "Why can't you folks make up your rabbit minds? Whaddaya want from me?!" Bless it's heart. You are right to give it the weekend off!
Love, Ima

Thanks, Ima. I needed that.

[ArkieDukie]

I received the final draft of the manuscript today, and I found out why I was excluded from last week's meetings. My boss let them do something that basically invalidated all the statistical analysis that I did. Once my boss finally put in an appearance, I went into his office and told him I wanted my name removed from the manuscript. Amazingly, this time he agreed with no discussion. I then sent an e-mail to him, Pushy PI, and The Minion which said, "After much thought and careful consideration, I respectfully request that my name be removed from the list of coauthors." After that, I wrote my boss a message that outlined the reasons that I wanted my name removed. All 8 of them included either outright falsification or misrepresentation of the data. Notably absent from my list: the decision they made last week that invalidated my work. I then made an appointment to chat with someone at the Academic Integrity office and have just returned home from that meeting. What I have learned is this: we're really in a holding pattern until they submit the manuscript that includes the fraudulent statements. As it currently stands, there are a few statements that are outright lies, but most of the others are worded in such a way that they are subject to interpretation. Those are harder to prove. It's also a good thing that I've started putting everything in writing. Relevant documents that I currently have: draft with my comments that were ignored, current draft, and message to my boss that lists the problems I have with the manuscript. I'll have to dig through my e-mail messages to see what other items I might need to include.

A humorous note: one of my concerns is the manner in which the dealt with The Minion's analysis mistake. They chose to completely omit all description of what she did. Instead, they refer to a figure in the supplemental data. The figure says what she should've done rather than what she actually did.

[DukePA]

I received the final draft of the manuscript today, and I found out why I was excluded from last week's meetings. My boss let them do something that basically invalidated all the statistical analysis that I did. Once my boss finally put in an appearance, I went into his office and told him I wanted my name removed from the manuscript. Amazingly, this time he agreed with no discussion. I then sent an e-mail to him, Pushy PI, and The Minion which said, "After much thought and careful consideration, I respectfully request that my name be removed from the list of coauthors." After that, I wrote my boss a message that outlined the reasons that I wanted my name removed. All 8 of them included either outright falsification or misrepresentation of the data. Notably absent from my list: the decision they made last week that invalidated my work. I then made an appointment to chat with someone at the Academic Integrity office and have just returned home from that meeting. What I have learned is this: we're really in a holding pattern until they submit the manuscript that includes the fraudulent statements. As it currently stands, there are a few statements that are outright lies, but most of the others are worded in such a way that they are subject to interpretation. Those are harder to prove. It's also a good thing that I've started putting everything in writing. Relevant documents that I currently have: draft with my comments that were ignored, current draft, and message to my boss that lists the problems I have with the manuscript. I'll have to dig through my e-mail messages to see what other items I might need to include.

A humorous note: one of my concerns is the manner in which the dealt with The Minion's analysis mistake. They chose to completely omit all description of what she did. Instead, they refer to a figure in the supplemental data. The figure says what she should've done rather than what she actually did.

Dayummmm. That being said, AD, you're my Sheroe! You rock and I am so proud to call you my friend. Way to stand up with integrity, honesty and dignity. Very well done! You must celebrate! Go DUKE! GTHC!