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I have some opinions that I know are unpopular among some of my female friends. I don't immediately take the knee-jerk position that all of the current reforms being enacted or called for regarding sexual assaults on campus are either necessary or a good idea.

First of all, anytime someone complains that instead of seminars teaching young women how to protect themselves, how about seminars telling young men "don't rape". As the mother of young men, I'm kind of offended because I've already done that. I've taught all of them to respect women from the time they were very little boys. If the calls were more for explaining to all students what constitutes sexual assault, fine by me. But making campus sexual assault an either/or situation, put the prevention all on young men OR on young women, sorry, but no. I don't agree with that approach as a good idea. Quite frankly, I think alcohol is probably involved in the vast majority of campus sexual assaults. I support more alcohol awareness training for both genders. I hate the attitude that all male college students are potential rapists. I suspect they hate it too.

Second, again as the mother of college aged males, this story in particular terrifies me - http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2014/11/0 ... ents-wait/. Here's my take on the story. Young woman gets drunk at a party and texts her former boyfriend with sexually teasing texts, invites him to her room, has sex with him and regrets it in the morning. She talks to friends about it who convince her that she was raped. I absolutely believe the young woman came to feel she was raped and I absolutely believe the young man thought it was consensual. I suspect he thought it was going to lead to them getting back together. What terrifies me about the case is again, thinking about my own sons. They are not terribly experienced when it comes to relationships. Despite my urging them to get girlfriends, they don't seem to eager to do so. I could see something like this happening to them. Mixed signals do exist. People don't always know their own minds. In the case of drunken sexual encounters, minds can probably change in a heartbeat. Young men do not always deserve to be punished for guessing wrong. But I blame the young woman's friends and the counseling services as much as any one else. Part of growing up is learning from your mistakes and when that mistake is getting drunk and having sex you later regret, it's not rape. I think about the young man. If I'm right and he thought the young woman's actions indicated that she still cared for him, perhaps that she was rethinking her decision to break it off - imagine being told a few weeks later that you are a rapist. Imagine having to face that hearing. Yeah, I feel sorry for the young man in this case, the system let him down too. I think the current environment is too quick to label an incident as rape. I do. And I think that does a disservice to the young women.

Third - the new call for fining institutions for mishandling sexual assault? http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/02/2 ... 61170.html Excuse the French, but are you fucking kidding me? I pay $60,000 to Duke every year. I don't relish the idea of paying more to cover something that should be the job of law enforcement. And if this is really going to become a think - I foresee a collapse in what parents of boys are going to be willing to pay. I would start advocating for some institutions to go all male so that I could avoid paying for these programs. There are currently no all male institutions of higher learning left in the US. For parents who have not raised potential rapists and for young men who'd rather just avoid all these problems, there really should be a place for them to go. I do not think that colleges are properly equipped, nor should they be, to handle law enforcement.

Fourth - many colleges, in a CYA type move, have made it automatic sexual misconduct if the female student has been drinking. It's true at Harvard, it's true now at Yale, and I think it's true at Duke. So, as a young woman, you can have a drink or two, have sex, then decide a day, a week, a month, maybe even a year later that it was rape because you regret doing it and you had been drinking. Young men are not afforded the same leeway, even if they were drinking too. What we are saying with those rules is that female college students who have had something to drink cannot possibly be trusted to know their own minds. As a feminist, and I am one, I cannot stand that! I say I'm a feminist because I believe men and women should be treated equally under the law. Rules like that should be anathema to feminists. My feminism is about raising women, not punishing men.

Fifth - the vast majority of sexual assaults do not occur on college campuses. Did you know that? Rape, like just about every other kind of crime, is a scourge of the lower socio-economic classes. That doesn't mean that I think we shouldn't address the problem on college campuses, but it shouldn't be the only place we address it either.

OK, take me to task on the points that you disagree with. I'm ready to have my mind changed - except about the fines. I'll dig on that one as it's an extremely stupid idea.

I agree with the majority of what you're saying. As to the fines and law enforcement, perhaps colleges and universities should refer all sexual assault complaints to the local police and let them handle it. If a school prevents complaints from being reported to the local authorities, then they should be fined.

Yeah, maybe.

I'm still not real big on fining universities for this stuff - I don't see fines as ever helping the situation. I'd rather see universities work with local law enforcement to set up guidelines about when/whether to bring them in, then follow those guidelines. If all cases automatically get referred, well, law enforcement agencies have limited budgets just like universities. I suspect there are many cases that would meet a university standard of sexual misconduct that would not meet a standard of criminal offense. If guidelines are set up as to which types of cases should be referred and which types of cases are best reviewed by a university panel and those guidelines are made public so that all students know what they are, we might find ourselves in a better place.

Bostondevil wrote:Yeah, maybe.

I'm still not real big on fining universities for this stuff - I don't see fines as ever helping the situation. I'd rather see universities work with local law enforcement to set up guidelines about when/whether to bring them in, then follow those guidelines. If all cases automatically get referred, well, law enforcement agencies have limited budgets just like universities. I suspect there are many cases that would meet a university standard of sexual misconduct that would not meet a standard of criminal offense. If guidelines are set up as to which types of cases should be referred and which types of cases are best reviewed by a university panel and those guidelines are made public so that all students know what they are, we might find ourselves in a better place.

That sounds like a great idea. Brainstorming is fun! Wanna run for office with me?

Hard cases make bad law.

This year in the Virginia General Assembly, there was a bill introduced to turn all campus sexual assault matters over to local law enforcement. Not sure what came of the bill. I think, like you, BD, it's a little much to send every one to law enforcement, but a checklist where certain cases are automatically referred as soon as they arise, and an investigation has to be opened within a very short period of time, would be a good thing.

I have made the decision on many, many sexual assault cases to charge or not charge. It can be very difficult to make that call. I will tell you that, as a rule of thumb in adult cases, if it isn't reported pretty quickly after it occurred, the matter isn't likely to be charged. If reported quickly enough, documentation can be had of any injuries consistent with force or inconsistent with consensual sex; DNA material can be recovered; relevant witnesses can be interviewed before they have time to forget or rea$on$ to forget or consolidate stores; any other evidence can be collected. I like to think I am cautious as to charging in these matters, in order to protect the innocent.

There are still four all-male colleges in the US, btw. Coworker Wayne wants his son to go to the one in VA, Hampden-Sydney.

College campuses are not bastions of enlightenment. They are dangerous places due to the large numbers of mostly unsupervised young adults. Let's look at a hypothetical: two female best friends take separate paths after graduating from high school. Youngster #1 decides to head off to college for the next four years, while youngster #2 decides to do a four year hitch in the military. Question, Which youngster is more likely to be the victim of a sexual assault? Answer, The one who goes to college.

http://foreignpolicy.com/2013/07/10/is- ... -epidemic/

Here’s what it adds up to: All in all, the rate of sexual assault in the military doesn’t appear significantly higher than the rate in the broader civilian population — and when you look at college campuses, which, like the military, are full of 17- to 24-year-olds, the military’s sexual assault rates start looking low in comparison.

I realize I am not directly addressing points made in the original post; however, I believe college campuses have a real problem. I don't know the answers to solve the problem, but I do know the military has instituted a lot of preventive measures over the years to deal with the problem, but sexual assaults still take place.

Bob, I read that article and kudos to the authors for admitting that the methods use to tabulate sexual assaults are so disparate that it is hard to get an accurate comparison. But then they make comparisons anyway. Those comparisons aren't accurate. I will concede that the problem of sexual assault in the military might not be at levels beyond the general population, but that might also be true of college campuses. Since this article comes from a point of view of defending the rates of sexual assault in the military, I am not inclined to accept the argument at face value until I've read the studies they use for their comparisons.

Here's one that doesn't look at the military as a separate category but does compare students to non-students. http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/rsavcaf9513.pdf

How is the first post in this thread "Wading Carefully?" And if wanting a response to the third point was really desired, how is resorting to the F-bomb conducive to friendly discussion and a dissent? "Wading carefully?"

Against fining schools? I can think of two cases where it's merited:
1) If a school intentionally misleads the public and potential students as to ANY crime statistic, including sexual assault. We make a decision on where to spend money and which school to go to, and crime statistics DO matter. If you mislead the public, you need to have a substantial penalty (or fine, don't fine them, but let people sue the hell out of the university). Most schools do the right thing. Some do not.
2) If your school awards course credit to people taking sham classes, having others submit work on their behalf, or performing some other such academic fraud. Fine their butts!!

Bostondevil wrote:First of all, anytime someone complains that instead of seminars teaching young women how to protect themselves, how about seminars telling young men "don't rape". As the mother of young men, I'm kind of offended because I've already done that. I've taught all of them to respect women from the time they were very little boys. If the calls were more for explaining to all students what constitutes sexual assault, fine by me. But making campus sexual assault an either/or situation, put the prevention all on young men OR on young women, sorry, but no. I don't agree with that approach as a good idea. Quite frankly, I think alcohol is probably involved in the vast majority of campus sexual assaults. I support more alcohol awareness training for both genders. I hate the attitude that all male college students are potential rapists. I suspect they hate it too.

I will state categorically from my 20 years of teaching experience, that training is 100% needed. It's sort of like CPR. Men, women, faculty, staff, and students all get it. Legalese, responses to scenarios, knowing whom to turn to, etc...

Over here, it isn't a question of whether a well-trained individual will commit a crime or thinking he or she is a rapist... it's a question of whether that individual is fully prepared to be 100% at the best of his abilities to situations in which he may be asked to respond.

Clearly, your experience with Title IX-related training is different from mine.

I consider it wading carefully when I take the time to say that I expect folks to disagree with me and that I am not close minded in my opinions on this matter. I might be wrong. But in order to have a debate, multiple opinions need to be discussed.

The third point is actually the least of my issues. I can't find the article right now, but there are 50 something universities currently being sued for mishandling sexual assault cases. I'll take that fact as evidence that some reform is needed. But I do think that some universities will decide these kinds of problems aren't worth it. There will be unintended consequences. Maybe no institutions will switch to single sex, but I can foresee single sex dorms where men are not allowed in women's dorms and women are not allowed in men's dorms. Duke could certainly return to women on East and men on West or vice versa. Be careful what you wish for. I also suspect if these kinds of fines become a reality what universities will really crack down on is parties and underage drinking. Students will get kicked out for drinking long before any sexual misconduct takes place.

As to the first point - I make that one in response to things I've read complaining about universities having rape prevention seminars for female students during freshman orientation. I've seen calls for ending this practice and instead having "Don't Rape" seminars for male students instead. I think that's a bad idea. I also think it's insulting. Should the discussion be raised with college students? Sure! Absolutely! But don't make it a women's issue or a men's issue, make it an issue. Female students can be urged to protect themselves at the same time that appropriate behavior is discussed with everybody. The opposite of slut shaming is not shaming young men instead. And I do think treating all young men as though they are rapists just looking for an opportunity to strike is shaming them.

When alcohol is consumed, judgment and good decisions are altered. And today alchol is mixed with pills and other recreational drugs, and conversations, exchanged texts and actions can mean different things to men and women.


I am sure most of us have done or said things, under the influence of alcohol, that we would not have said, sober!


This topic reminds me of the Duke student, Karen Owens 2010.... that wrote a faux Thesis on her sexual encounters with Duke athletes, and emailed it in a PowerPoint presentation. With every encounter, alcohol seems to be involved, or nights out at Shooters.

The sad situation is that Ms Karen Owens was a recent Duke graduate, and to this day, if you google 'Karen Owens"...... her "Thesis" is at the top of the list. She embarrassed herself, her family, the young men involved and their families and the teams, and Duke University. As the PowerPoint Thesis made national news on CNN, Good Morning America, CBS, and all the talk shows and news.
Ms Owens actions were consenual, but not good choices. The Thesis was a huge bad decision. Stupid!

I value all of the comments in this thread.

Bostondevil wrote:The third point is actually the least of my issues. I can't find the article right now, but there are 50 something universities currently being sued for mishandling sexual assault cases. I'll take that fact as evidence that some reform is needed. But I do think that some universities will decide these kinds of problems aren't worth it. There will be unintended consequences. Maybe no institutions will switch to single sex, but I can foresee single sex dorms where men are not allowed in women's dorms and women are not allowed in men's dorms. Duke could certainly return to women on East and men on West or vice versa. Be careful what you wish for. I also suspect if these kinds of fines become a reality what universities will really crack down on is parties and underage drinking. Students will get kicked out for drinking long before any sexual misconduct takes place.

It went up from 50 some-odd to 94 by earlier this year. It's the current Title IX, not the proposed legislation. See this link:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/01/0 ... 32596.html
I believe that the most significant/noteworthy of the investigations includes Dartmouth. Under Title IX, if a university mishandles a sexual assault case, the penalties are NOT the same as the proposed bill that was cited earlier.

Title IX-related seminars we take for freshman orientation, staff, and faculty (at least the ones we take) are not Either/OR gender. These include seminars, on line modules (scenario training), legalese, and learning about resources and what to do (preventative and response).

I'm glad to hear that, Lavabe. Then I support those actions. I'm reacting to internet stuff I've read. Thank you for setting me straight!

It would figure that moments before I posted my opinions on this topic the news breaks about Rasheed. In light of that, I am going to keep my disagreement to myself

Bostondevil wrote:Since this article comes from a point of view of defending the rates of sexual assault in the military, I am not inclined to accept the argument at face value until I've read the studies they use for their comparisons.

I posted the link to the article to support my belief a problem exists on college campuses. I do not believe the article is attempting to defend the rates of sexual assault in the military as everyone associated with the military agrees the rates are too high. The article is saying other organizations (college campuses) have bigger problems than the military. However, I believe my posts are tangential to your voiced concerns.

I've been giving this topic a lot thought over the past few days. I believe there is no doubt that the number of sexual assault cases that make it to court are miniscule and that we have an ongoing epidemic occurring on campuses and throughout society. I hate that victims are frequently slut shamed and forced to defend themselves. I don't care if the victim is a prostitute; no one has the right to rape her. I can see why victims are hesitant to come forward especially since they risk being further traumatized.

As a society, I don't believe we've done a good job teaching people not to rape. We frequently hear what victims need to do to protect themselves, but how about giving at least equal time to telling potential offenders what they need to avoid? You might think it's a given, but I believe it's glaringly apparent that many people don't get it. It's not so obvious. As the mother of a son, I taught him from his early teens that only yes means yes. I advised him to avoid physical contact if he or she were drunk or high. I do believe it is critical to teach our children what sexual assault is in all its nuances.

As a Psychiatric medical provider, anecdotal evidence in my practice has revealed that an overwhelming 85-90% of my patients, female and male, have, at some point, been sexually assaulted. What does this say about humanity? It's sickening.

Of course it is horrible to be falsely accused of sexual assault. No one deserves that. In the meantime, we must keep talking to our kids and let there be no room for ambiguity because only a sober yes means yes. Colleges and universities should do everything they can to keep all their students safe. They must be very transparent about the crime rates and work to decrease all crimes while making it possible for victims to come forward. That's my 2 cents.

I was very disappointed to read the Chronicle article about Sheed yesterday.

Bob Green wrote:

Bostondevil wrote:Since this article comes from a point of view of defending the rates of sexual assault in the military, I am not inclined to accept the argument at face value until I've read the studies they use for their comparisons.

I posted the link to the article to support my belief a problem exists on college campuses. I do not believe the article is attempting to defend the rates of sexual assault in the military as everyone associated with the military agrees the rates are too high. The article is saying other organizations (college campuses) have bigger problems than the military. However, I believe my posts are tangential to your voiced concerns.

The article says that college campuses have bigger problems than the military. The BJS data show that for 18-24 year olds, college students have lower rates of rape than non-students.

DukePA, I'm not sure that we do have an ongoing epidemic. Reading those BJS statistics, what I see is that in a time when all other violent crime rates have been going down, rapes have remained steady. I'm all for focusing on ways to reduce those rates as well. I'm not sure focusing solely on college campuses is the best way to do it, but I'm not against increasing pressure to take the crime more seriously.

One thing I have a hard time wrapping my head around though is how to rectify one of the foundations of our criminal justice system - the presumption of innocence - with cases of rape. We are supposed to presume the accused is innocent until they are proven guilty. The burden of proof is on the state. As upsetting and unfair as it must be, we are supposed to ask what if the accuser is lying, it's a basic tenet of our judicial system. That right there is another reason why I think it isn't a good idea to turn all complaints of sexual misconduct on college campuses over to law enforcement. I think there should be a higher standard of proof for sending someone to prison than suspending them or expelling them from school.

To me, the fact that reported sexual assaults have not decreased reinforces the idea of an an ongoing epidemic of sexual assaults in our society. It is a huge problem that has not been adequately dealt with. If I implied that we focus solely on college campuses, that was not my intent. The problem is societal.

As to the presumption of innocence, I completely agree, but that does not give the defense the right to slut shame accusers. Yes, ask and determine if they're telling the truth, look for a patterns of false accusations, but don't cross the line into putting the responsibility for the assault on the accused. There is a good reason why so few cases are reported.