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Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 11:14 am
by OZZIE4DUKE
windsor wrote: One of these days I will share the saga of Windsor’ Finest Hour aka ‘how I came to have two large titanium bearings mounted on a plaque’
That is a story we have GOT to hear!
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 12:05 pm
by lawgrad91
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 1:02 pm
by Lavabe
Start the new thread NOW!!
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 2:47 pm
by windsor
Lavabe wrote:
Start the new thread NOW!!
The entire sorted saga can be found under 'Windsor's Bearings' .....
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: July 26th, 2011, 7:23 pm
by ArkieDukie
windsor wrote:ArkieDukie wrote:Windsor, again, a hearty thank you and a salute to your brilliance.
You are, as always, most welcome. I'm not sure it is so much brilliance as experience. I have been in IT for pushing 30 years...starting when there just weren't a lot of women in IT. I had to have crappy handwriting and ask people to repeat themselves a lot to NOT be the assumed 'note taker' at every meeting because I was female.
. I have brewed some nasty tasting pots of coffee on purpose. I have been honey, sweetie and deared to death. Luckily, somewhere early on I learned to use the blonde hair and the gender as an advantage...please think I am a silly dumb blonde woman...I will let you reel out rope, paint yourself into a corner and at the last second I will rip your {redacted} off. If I am arguing with someone who is male (and back in the day most of them were) I don't set off the testosterone alarm that another man would and get away with a LOT more.
Most of my passive/aggressive knowledge comes from being on projects for years that involved multiple departments and watching the power plays go down…When you are on the outside it is much easier to the gamesmanship than when you are in the thick of the fight. I will admit to yanking the chains of the players sometimes just for amusement. Sometimes I am evil.
I am not passive aggressive. If I feel the need to be aggressive there is nothing passive about it. I’m out there in your face. The older I get the less the I need to do that, my gender is no longer much of an issue and most folks now assume I know what I am blathering about. I also don’t sneak around behind people…as one of my good friends once said “Loni will never stab you in the back…she will tap you on the shoulder and make sure you are turned around before she cuts your heart out” .
I’ve reached a point where I am not afraid or intimidated by anyone in the workplace. They can fire me. That’s it. They aren’t going to shoot my dogs or burn my house down. One of these days I will share the saga of Windsor’ Finest Hour aka ‘how I came to have two large titanium bearings mounted on a plaque’
Maybe it's just a female thing, windsor. I am also treated as a silly dumb woman (I'm not a blonde). Arrogant power player types are the worst offenders. These are the people that I really like to make look stupid. I'm in the middle of this right now with PPI and M.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 7:41 pm
by ArkieDukie
Another banner day in the "As the Manuscipt Turns" saga: today I received a copy of the newly revised and resubmitted manuscript. So, remember that conversation that Pushy PI and I had? The one where he said they were going to include the correct spectrum with a note saying that either spectrum could be correct? Well, the incorrect spectrum is still there. No sign whatsoever of the correct one. Yep, Pushy PI was blowing smoke. Raise your hand if you're surprised.
The fact is, they have now knowingly included a incorrect data. I haven't read through the manuscript yet, but I suspect that's the tip of a VERY large iceberg. Since I have the manuscript, I can read through it carefully and get together the necessary documentation for reporting them to Academic Integrity. The question is, should I do it now or wait until I have a new job? The whole situation would be cleaner and less embarrasing for Pushy PI, The Minion, and my boss if this all happens BEFORE the manuscript is published. OTOH, despite the fact that there are not supposed to be repercussions for whistle blowers, my boss would make my life VERY difficult if I turn them in before I leave - assuming, of course, that the AI office determines that they did something wrong. I think it will be a done deal based upon the documentation that I have. That makes my options "easier for them" vs "easier for me." I may have to vote for me on this one.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 8:37 pm
by OZZIE4DUKE
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 10:12 pm
by Very Duke Blue
I vote with you and Ozzie. Make it easier for you. They had their chance. Let them "boil in oil".
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 10:25 pm
by lawgrad91
I also vote easier for you. You have bent over backwards to try to get them to see the error of their ways, so you shouldn't feel as though you need to look out for their interests any further.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 10:32 pm
by YmoBeThere
I find it strange in this day and age that men continue to underestimate the intelligence and wisdom of their female peers. I have met more than my share who have made me realize I have a lot to learn!
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 1st, 2011, 10:37 pm
by YmoBeThere
I think you have run into the proverbial ethical dilemma that pops up on Business School applications. I'm fairly certain, Harvard Business School used this on their applications. This was before Jeff Skilling helped bring down Enron. Sure, such a small sample could be attributed to just about any b-school, I do like to point out the failures of those from the Duke of the North.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 11:14 am
by windsor
I'm casting my lot with "easier on them"..NOT becasue it is easier on them. I'm not familiar with how the reserach world operates, but in my unvierse of propeller heads if you waited to raise the flag and point the finger people would be asking why you didn't bring it up as soon as it was uncovered. Letting them submit and then questioning the data would not be looked upon kindly if you knew about it in advance. I will defer to those with experience in rarified air of academia/research...
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 1:47 pm
by DukieInKansas
I have no experience in research/academia/publishing world and did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take my comments with that in mind.
I lean to the "easier on them" approach. I'm not sure what potential use this study has for others, but do you want to see a lot of other research done based on this flawed study? As I recall, you have worked on some projects/studies that were part of cancer research. It is bad enough that these idiots didn't listen to you and have wasted their time/other's money, but could someone take their research and waste time going down a road that they wouldn't have if the study had been done correctly in the first place or if it had not been published? I would hope that peer review would catch the errors in their study but do you want to count on it?
(I'm feeling pretty good - I agree with Windsor the Wise.)
eta: I hate that this option isn't also easier for you in the short run also. What a crappy position you are in. I hope the knowledge that you have a lot of support here is at least some comfort to you.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 2:13 pm
by Lavabe
windsor wrote:I'm casting my lot with "easier on them"..NOT becasue it is easier on them. I'm not familiar with how the reserach world operates, but in my unvierse of propeller heads if you waited to raise the flag and point the finger people would be asking why you didn't bring it up as soon as it was uncovered. Letting them submit and then questioning the data would not be looked upon kindly if you knew about it in advance. I will defer to those with experience in rarified air of academia/research...
Okay, it took me an hour to respond, but the message was not saved. ARGH!!!
Listen, windsor is right.
Get to Academic Integrity soon. Be sure to explain also your fear of your job/job search. You need to talk with a live person.
Do you still have an email in which they give reasons for dismissing your issues? Do you have an email in which PushyPI asks you back onto the manuscript?
I really wish you had gotten even a visiting position for the next academic year.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 2:55 pm
by bluebutton
Lavabe wrote:windsor wrote:I'm casting my lot with "easier on them"..NOT becasue it is easier on them. I'm not familiar with how the reserach world operates, but in my unvierse of propeller heads if you waited to raise the flag and point the finger people would be asking why you didn't bring it up as soon as it was uncovered. Letting them submit and then questioning the data would not be looked upon kindly if you knew about it in advance. I will defer to those with experience in rarified air of academia/research...
Okay, it took me an hour to respond, but the message was not saved. ARGH!!!
Listen, windsor is right.
Get to Academic Integrity soon. Be sure to explain also your fear of your job/job search. You need to talk with a live person.
Do you still have an email in which they give reasons for dismissing your issues? Do you have an email in which PushyPI asks you back onto the manuscript?
I really wish you had gotten even a visiting position for the next academic year.
You might also want to talk to your ombuds office or whomever deals with whistleblowing protection since of course a huge issue is your own livelihood.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 4:47 pm
by windsor
I should add that your position at this point is defensible. Since P-PI led you to believe that changes were made that addressed some of your concerns you felt they deserved the benefit of the doubt. Now that you have a copy in your hot little hand and that is NOT the case you can not allow it to be submitted in that state. Your concerns have been ignored by P-PI and your boss, so they have left you no choice but to bring the matter to Academic Integrity. That would be my story, and I would stick to it.
Make sure every scrap of documentation as well as any 'atta girls', performance reviews, and other HR type documents are copied to a non work location.
Retaliation against a whistle blower is taken pretty seriously...don't be afraid to rattle the litigation sabre if you need to.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 4:53 pm
by windsor
one more thing....(I feel like Columbo) ...you can't defend yourself if you aren't there. I'm sure most of us have experience the workplace phenomena called "Blame the Guy that Left"....if there is ANY WAY they can lie or imply that you part and party to this your reputation could end up in the proverbial crapper.
Given what you have said about this fine (snort) group of human beings I have no doubt they will play as dirty as necessary to save their own asses. I don't want them to be able to do that at the expense of yours.
Square your shoulders, set your jaw and tell the MoFos to bring it. We don't lose, and we don't take prisoners.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 6:56 pm
by ArkieDukie
windsor wrote:I'm casting my lot with "easier on them"..NOT becasue it is easier on them. I'm not familiar with how the reserach world operates, but in my unvierse of propeller heads if you waited to raise the flag and point the finger people would be asking why you didn't bring it up as soon as it was uncovered. Letting them submit and then questioning the data would not be looked upon kindly if you knew about it in advance. I will defer to those with experience in rarified air of academia/research...
Yeah, windsor, you're exactly right. I have realized this since yesterday afternoon when I read the manuscript. I've been trying to talk myself out of this realization, quite honestly. I'd really prefer not to be around when
. Man, it's fun to be me.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 6:59 pm
by ArkieDukie
DukieInKansas wrote:I have no experience in research/academia/publishing world and did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night, so take my comments with that in mind.
I lean to the "easier on them" approach. I'm not sure what potential use this study has for others, but do you want to see a lot of other research done based on this flawed study? As I recall, you have worked on some projects/studies that were part of cancer research. It is bad enough that these idiots didn't listen to you and have wasted their time/other's money, but could someone take their research and waste time going down a road that they wouldn't have if the study had been done correctly in the first place or if it had not been published? I would hope that peer review would catch the errors in their study but do you want to count on it?
(I'm feeling pretty good - I agree with Windsor the Wise.)
eta: I hate that this option isn't also easier for you in the short run also. What a crappy position you are in. I hope the knowledge that you have a lot of support here is at least some comfort to you.
Thanks, DinK. Fortunately this particular study is of more intellectual interest than anything else. However, PPI has been pushing hard for this one because he needs the paper for renewal of a big research grant. Suffice it to say, being found guilty of data falsification could hit him harder than no manuscript.
Re: an interesting dilemma...
Posted: August 2nd, 2011, 7:10 pm
by ArkieDukie
Lavabe wrote:windsor wrote:I'm casting my lot with "easier on them"..NOT becasue it is easier on them. I'm not familiar with how the reserach world operates, but in my unvierse of propeller heads if you waited to raise the flag and point the finger people would be asking why you didn't bring it up as soon as it was uncovered. Letting them submit and then questioning the data would not be looked upon kindly if you knew about it in advance. I will defer to those with experience in rarified air of academia/research...
Okay, it took me an hour to respond, but the message was not saved. ARGH!!!
Listen, windsor is right.
Get to Academic Integrity soon. Be sure to explain also your fear of your job/job search. You need to talk with a live person.
Do you still have an email in which they give reasons for dismissing your issues? Do you have an email in which PushyPI asks you back onto the manuscript?
I really wish you had gotten even a visiting position for the next academic year.
Unfortunately, I have no e-mails where they discuss dismissing my issues. They've been very careful to NOT document anything - at least to me. PPI asked me to reconsider co-authorship in a one-on-one meeting. That's going to make it he-said-she-said.
Here's what I do have: I have the next-to-last draft of the already rejected version of the manuscript, where I tried to correct several mistakes - and made notes on what was incorrect. It's all there, thanks to the magic of "Track changes." And, now that I've read part of the manuscript, I have confirmation that they left it unchanged. I have the list of concerns that I sent to my boss after the first draft went out. I have the e-mail I sent to my boss with the correct spectrum - the one that PPI said he was going to include and didn't. I have an e-mail from The Minon admitting to a mistake that was covered up.
My plan is to avoid he-said-she-said as much as I can and stick to things I can document. I've got enough documentation of things they're knowingly falsifying to get them in huge trouble IMO. There are multiple misleading statements; those are a bit of a gray area and are harder to prove. However, I'm going to do my best. If I've got solid evidence, it's going in. I'm going to do this very carefully and make sure that all i's are dotted and t's are crossed. This may take a while, especially since I'm going to be out of town for a few days (symposium in WI; I have to pay my own way). As per your suggestion, I'm going to meet with someone at the AI office tomorrow, assuming I can get an appointment. If not, it will be early next week.
