New Car

[Rolvix]

It says image not available when I look at it.

Me too.

[ArkieDukie]

When I lived in CO it seemed like everyone drove a Subaru. They're supposedly great cars for the winter weather driving in that area. It sounds like a Forester or something similar would definitely be worth looking into, with your combo of winter and summer activities.

[DukeUsul]

If AWD is important for your driving conditions (rain, snow.... not ice, thanks Ozzie) then evaluating the various AWD systems may be important. One big difference is in whether the system actually sends torque to all four wheels all the time or not. Many AWD cars are just 2WD cars that wait until slippage occurs and then compensate. The computer detects slippage of the main drive wheels and then engages a center differential lock, transferring power to the other wheels. There's usually a lag during this transfer.

Another important difference is the type of locking differential used to lock the slipping wheels and transfer torque. Many AWD cars use electronic sensors to detect slippage, then electronically apply either a differential lock or apply the brakes to the slipping wheel. Some use a viscous fluid and hydraulics in the differential to lock when slippage occurs. All these systems are reactive, relying on the computer to detect and engage or the viscous fluid to heat up. There's a lag for the system to engage and transfer torque. Many of these systems can only transfer partial amounts of torque to the non-main-drive wheels.

For example, the Audi A3 and TT are Haldex viscous-coupling AWD systems. They are 100% FWD cars when driven under normal conditions. After slippage occurs, the viscous fluid heats up, causing torque to be transferred to the rear axle. At most, there will be a 50/50 torque split from front to back.

Pretty much all "real" 4WD trucks and some AWD cars use mechanical differential locks or Torsen differentials that "proactively" engage and transfer torque as one wheel begins to slip. Torsen differentials will actually transfer torque from a wheel before slippage actually occurs. Torsen systems have a fault when complete traction loss occurs in one wheel - the Torsen differential doesn't work in these cases, so one of the other above methods is also used (like an electronic differential lock) to supplement.

Anyway, I'm a huge Audi fan, but you should know that the AWD system in the A4 and higher models (which are Torsen based) is different than the kind you get in the A3, TT and most other cars on the roads. If that's important to you, you may want to read up on it.

I think Subarus send power to all four wheels all the time, but there's a wide variety of differential locking mechanisms for each model and transmission type:
http://www.drive.subaru.com/Win09/Win09 ... tMakes.htm

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4wd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscous_coupling_unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential (see description of Electronic Differential Lock)

Search here for quattro, Torsen and Haldex
http://forums.audiworld.com/index.php

And definitely get a Turbo. If you're going up to 10,000 feet, it'll make a difference. As the oxygen content decreases, the turbo is capable of compensating for it by spinning faster to compress the air, something a normally aspirated engine can not. Both will experience power losses, but the turbo less so.

[devildeac]

If AWD is important for your driving conditions (rain, snow.... not ice, thanks Ozzie) then evaluating the various AWD systems may be important. One big difference is in whether the system actually sends torque to all four wheels all the time or not. Many AWD cars are just 2WD cars that wait until slippage occurs and then compensate. The computer detects slippage of the main drive wheels and then engages a center differential lock, transferring power to the other wheels. There's usually a lag during this transfer.

Another important difference is the type of locking differential used to lock the slipping wheels and transfer torque. Many AWD cars use electronic sensors to detect slippage, then electronically apply either a differential lock or apply the brakes to the slipping wheel. Some use a viscous fluid and hydraulics in the differential to lock when slippage occurs. All these systems are reactive, relying on the computer to detect and engage or the viscous fluid to heat up. There's a lag for the system to engage and transfer torque. Many of these systems can only transfer partial amounts of torque to the non-main-drive wheels.

For example, the Audi A3 and TT are Haldex viscous-coupling AWD systems. They are 100% FWD cars when driven under normal conditions. After slippage occurs, the viscous fluid heats up, causing torque to be transferred to the rear axle. At most, there will be a 50/50 torque split from front to back.

Pretty much all "real" 4WD trucks and some AWD cars use mechanical differential locks or Torsen differentials that "proactively" engage and transfer torque as one wheel begins to slip. Torsen differentials will actually transfer torque from a wheel before slippage actually occurs. Torsen systems have a fault when complete traction loss occurs in one wheel - the Torsen differential doesn't work in these cases, so one of the other above methods is also used (like an electronic differential lock) to supplement.

Anyway, I'm a huge Audi fan, but you should know that the AWD system in the A4 and higher models (which are Torsen based) is different than the kind you get in the A3, TT and most other cars on the roads. If that's important to you, you may want to read up on it.

I think Subarus send power to all four wheels all the time, but there's a wide variety of differential locking mechanisms for each model and transmission type:
http://www.drive.subaru.com/Win09/Win09 ... tMakes.htm

Here are some links:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4wd
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haldex_Traction
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torsen
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscous_coupling_unit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locking_differential (see description of Electronic Differential Lock)

Search here for quattro, Torsen and Haldex
http://forums.audiworld.com/index.php

And definitely get a Turbo. If you're going up to 10,000 feet, it'll make a difference. As the oxygen content decreases, the turbo is capable of compensating for it by spinning faster to compress the air, something a normally aspirated engine can not. Both will experience power losses, but the turbo less so.

Best explanation I've ever read about 4WD/AWD mechanics. Not that I understood everything :oops: .

Thanks for 'splainin'.

[DevilAlumna]

I thought it was mandatory that anyone buying a car in Colorado had to buy a Subaru Outback, something about it being the state car. ;)

[wilson]

So, rmd, have you selected new wheels yet?

[rockymtn devil]

So, rmd, have you selected new wheels yet?

No. I'm moving this weekend, and have decided to wait a few months so I can save up a bit more of a down payment (the plan was to move and then determine what I could afford based on my new rent). The wonderful discussion of AWD systems in this thread gave me a lot to think about. At this point, I'm leaning towards either an A4 or an Impreza. I'll update as the decision becomes clearer.

In the meantime, let's hope that the low HP, RWD C-Class can make it through another winter. If not, my plans may be disrupted.

[wilson]

No. I'm moving this weekend, and have decided to wait a few months so I can save up a bit more of a down payment (the plan was to move and then determine what I could afford based on my new rent).

Just kill two birds (and the planet).

[rockymtn devil]

Well I've decided on a car (although the dealer doesn't know it yet) and should have it by week's end. I went with a 2010 Outback, navy blue with beige interior, and everything but the navigation system. Got a good price and a fair trade-in (much more than I expected). I was a bit worried about the 4-cylinder N/A engine struggling in the altitude, but they let me drive it up I-70 and it wasn't sluggish at all.

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

[YmoBeThere]

Congrats on the new car!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Well I've decided on a car (although the dealer doesn't know it yet) and should have it by week's end. I went with a 2010 Outback, navy blue with beige interior, and everything but the navigation system. Got a good price and a fair trade-in (much more than I expected). I was a bit worried about the 4-cylinder N/A engine struggling in the altitude, but they let me drive it up I-70 and it wasn't sluggish at all.

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

That Boxer engine is super smooth for a 4 cylinder engine. I drove one a few weeks ago. I'd like to drive the 6, but the dealer didn't have one in stock when I was there.

[rockymtn devil]

Well I've decided on a car (although the dealer doesn't know it yet) and should have it by week's end. I went with a 2010 Outback, navy blue with beige interior, and everything but the navigation system. Got a good price and a fair trade-in (much more than I expected). I was a bit worried about the 4-cylinder N/A engine struggling in the altitude, but they let me drive it up I-70 and it wasn't sluggish at all.

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

That Boxer engine is super smooth for a 4 cylinder engine. I drove one a few weeks ago. I'd like to drive the 6, but the dealer didn't have one in stock when I was there.

It is. And the CVT helps give an extra push when needed on a climb. The 6-cylinders in anything other than the base trim are damn near impossible to find. I spent a chunk of last week trying to find one in a surrounding state.

[TillyGalore]

Congratulations!!

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Well I've decided on a car (although the dealer doesn't know it yet) and should have it by week's end. I went with a 2010 Outback, navy blue with beige interior, and everything but the navigation system. Got a good price and a fair trade-in (much more than I expected). I was a bit worried about the 4-cylinder N/A engine struggling in the altitude, but they let me drive it up I-70 and it wasn't sluggish at all.

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

You've made a great choice that I think you'll enjoy for a long time. Does this car have the all weather package?

[DukeUsul]

Well I've decided on a car (although the dealer doesn't know it yet) and should have it by week's end. I went with a 2010 Outback, navy blue with beige interior, and everything but the navigation system. Got a good price and a fair trade-in (much more than I expected). I was a bit worried about the 4-cylinder N/A engine struggling in the altitude, but they let me drive it up I-70 and it wasn't sluggish at all.

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

Awesome. Great choice.

[rockymtn devil]

You've made a great choice that I think you'll enjoy for a long time. Does this car have the all weather package?

I think so too. The car does have the all weather package. That was one of the options that was a deal breaker for me.

[Lavabe]

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

So what do they work on? Sorry for sounding so naive, but how did that help you in bargaining?

[devildeac]

Will it make a delivery to/pick-up in Vail?

;)

[rockymtn devil]

The best lesson learned was to deal with internet managers. They don't work on commission and that only helps you save money.

So what do they work on? Sorry for sounding so naive, but how did that help you in bargaining?

Not naive at all. I didn't know until I did a little research. They're salaried employees, but they achieve bonuses based on volume moved. So whereas a salesperson's commission is based on the amount of profit he/she makes the dealer (ex: $0-1000 profit-20%, 1000-2000- 25%, etc.) and it's in their best interest to squeeze every last dime out of a customer, the internet manager is helped simply by moving the car. Further, since the inventories are all online now, and most dealers will give you a quote for a specific car (identified by VIN #) even if it's not on their lot, you can pick a car online and then have the various internet managers bid against one another for that specific car. Since most dealers have a meet or beat policy, if you receive multiple quotes for the same car, you can just work the price down until you've hit the bottom that any dealership is willing to sell for.

You can still get hit on your trade-in and on the financing, but going through the internet manager is a benefit on the price of the car.

[rockymtn devil]

Will it make a delivery to/pick-up in Vail?

;)

That's four hours round trip!