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Lavabe wrote: The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

Lavabe wrote:
The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

CathyCA wrote:

Lavabe wrote:
The drawback in Arkie's situation is that the alleged data falsifier has yet to be formally accused,processed, and so forth, under the proper institutional guidelines. Having mention of the current employer on the CV AND some mention of falsifying would draw the attention of the potential employer. That employer MIGHT make some contact or even spread word about Arkie's current employer. This word could potentially get back to Arkie's current employer... BEFORE CHARGES WOULD HAVE BEEN MADE. None of this is what Arkie needs to have happen. Frankly, it would make it more difficult for the Academic Integrity folks to process any charge against the team.

For the sake of fairness for the academic integrity folks, I wouldn't do anything to spoil the process.

What you CAN do is express your experience, expertise, and background in all aspects of chemistry, particularly research methods, data analysis, and whatever else that you do. At that point, you can state the ideal team situation that you are seeking, and mention how you are looking for a situation in which several things occur (one of which is a high regard for academic and scientific integrity).

Once the a-holes are found guilty, then you can SHIN KICK AWAY!!

Quoting myself for emphasis here:

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

CathyCA wrote:Quoting myself for emphasis here:

I would be very brief and not name names in the retelling. . .

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

ArkieDukie wrote:

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:

ArkieDukie wrote:

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

"You're off that project. Why are you wasting your time looking at data on something you're not supposed to be working on?" That very well could be the reaction you get from your boss IF you tell him your findings... So why were you working on it? Silence is golden!

ArkieDukie wrote:

ArkieDukie wrote:

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.
There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

"You're off that project. Why are you wasting your time looking at data on something you're not supposed to be working on?" That very well could be the reaction you get from your boss IF you tell him your findings... So why were you working on it? Silence is golden!

That's somewhat related to what my friend said. The answer to "why was I working on it?" is that I was satisfying my own intellectual curiousity. I now know, without a doubt, that I was right. They don't need to know. Chances are, they don't want to know anyway. Now I can REALLY sit back and enjoy the fireworks if their manuscript is rejected because the reviewers catch all the points that they ignored me on.

ArkieDukie wrote:

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

Lavabe wrote:

ArkieDukie wrote:

OZZIE4DUKE wrote:Aw, jeez, have some fun and don't be diplomatic! Just put the data on his desk and tell him what it means. If he asks you to tell the PI and minion, diplomatically decline, saying "no, you took me off that project and those folks need to hear this from you..." If he doesn't ask you to tell them, wait a day and see if tells them at all. Then go see the integrity people again and let them know about it.

There's only one problem with your scenario, Ozzie: sending the data via e-mail gives me a paper trail. At least one friend thinks I shouldn't tell them at all. I do believe I may have an ethical obligation to do so, though. If not, I'm all for letting 'em look stupid.

It's getting tough to follow.
Are you indeed officially OFF the project? Have you been told as such? Or are they just not meeting with you, and no official word was ever sent to you?

Were the data sent to you while you were on the project or afterwards?

ArkieDukie wrote:

Lavabe wrote:It's getting tough to follow.
Are you indeed officially OFF the project? Have you been told as such? Or are they just not meeting with you, and no official word was ever sent to you?

Were the data sent to you while you were on the project or afterwards?

AFAIK I'm off. The only notification I received was my boss telling me the meetings were canceled indefinitely. He's still meeting with them, but I'm definitely not invited.

This is not new data. It's new analysis of the data used in the paper - specifically, one spectrum. It's something I wanted to do before the manuscript went out; it just didn't happen. It's a good spectrum and a poor match for what it's assigned to in the manuscript. It wasn't assigned to the protein of interest when searched against a database containing the protein of interest plus a few other proteins. I found the match in a search against a database of all rat proteins (species of their protein, which is somehow appropriate). The sample was allegedly a purified protein, "so it couldn't contain anything else." Another of those arguments I gave up on long ago.

DukieInKansas wrote:I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

ArkieDukie wrote:

DukieInKansas wrote:I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

My opinion is swinging back to telling them, DinK, for all of the reasons that you cite. I really do think I have a moral/ethical obligation to pass along my recent findings. What they decide to do with the new information is up to them. I'll supplement with lots of evidence documenting why this particular assignment is reasonable and send it "for your consideration."

DukieInKansas wrote:

ArkieDukie wrote:

DukieInKansas wrote:I think you should stick with emailing the new information so you have a paper trail. If you pass the information along, you have taken the high road. What they do with it is up to them. You will always be able to say that you did your best to get the correct data and analysis in the paper. Even if your name ends up not being on the paper, word may get out that you were involved and you want to have as much documentation showing your integrity as possible.

Of course, I'm only an accountant and don't know your field. And - I did NOT stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

My opinion is swinging back to telling them, DinK, for all of the reasons that you cite. I really do think I have a moral/ethical obligation to pass along my recent findings. What they decide to do with the new information is up to them. I'll supplement with lots of evidence documenting why this particular assignment is reasonable and send it "for your consideration."

I'll give you the graduation advice I have been sharing this year - you must be able to look yourself in the eye each morning so think of that when you are making those late night (or not so late night) decisions.