The Political Junkie Thread

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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by Phredd3 » February 8th, 2021, 6:20 pm

CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 8th, 2021, 10:56 am
ArkieDukie wrote:
February 7th, 2021, 9:04 pm
Why in the world didn't the Democrats include the phone call to GA in the articles of impeachment? I think it is a mistake, just as I thought their strategy in the first impeachment was a mistake. Trump is cunning enough to hide his tracks well in the Capitol insurrection. I'd be happy if the FBI found something good for the Democrats to use, but not counting on it. He is on tape trying to change votes in GA. Seems as though that is something that could not be ignored.
I'm fairly certain that we will be hearing more about that call from the Georgia AG. Just as with the incitement charges, the chances of the Senate convicting him on anything brought from that phone call are slim to none. In a true court of law, however...
Exactly. There's a lot of talk about "lawyers" when it comes to the impeachment trial, and I suppose lawyers still have to be at least a little careful about what evidence they present under oath, but this is not a legal matter. It's a political one. I think there's almost no chance that Trump gets convicted in a political "Trial by Senate".

When lawyers have to meet legal, judicial, and bar-ethics standards, though, Trump is going to find out that the playing field is a little different, and criminal courts are a lot harder to bully your way out of than civil courts are.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 8th, 2021, 9:36 pm

Phredd3 wrote:
February 8th, 2021, 6:20 pm
CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 8th, 2021, 10:56 am
ArkieDukie wrote:
February 7th, 2021, 9:04 pm
Why in the world didn't the Democrats include the phone call to GA in the articles of impeachment? I think it is a mistake, just as I thought their strategy in the first impeachment was a mistake. Trump is cunning enough to hide his tracks well in the Capitol insurrection. I'd be happy if the FBI found something good for the Democrats to use, but not counting on it. He is on tape trying to change votes in GA. Seems as though that is something that could not be ignored.
I'm fairly certain that we will be hearing more about that call from the Georgia AG. Just as with the incitement charges, the chances of the Senate convicting him on anything brought from that phone call are slim to none. In a true court of law, however...
Exactly. There's a lot of talk about "lawyers" when it comes to the impeachment trial, and I suppose lawyers still have to be at least a little careful about what evidence they present under oath, but this is not a legal matter. It's a political one. I think there's almost no chance that Trump gets convicted in a political "Trial by Senate".

When lawyers have to meet legal, judicial, and bar-ethics standards, though, Trump is going to find out that the playing field is a little different, and criminal courts are a lot harder to bully your way out of than civil courts are.
And on cue...
The office of Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger confirmed to CNN on Monday that it has started an investigation into former President Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the state's election results, including a phone call the former President made to Raffensperger.

Walter Jones, a spokesperson for Raffensperger, told CNN in a written statement that "the Secretary of State's office investigates complaints it receives. The investigations are fact-finding and administrative in nature. Any further legal efforts will be left to the Attorney General." Reuters was first to report on the investigation.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/02/08/politics ... index.html
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by dudog » February 9th, 2021, 6:31 pm

In case you missed it, here's the House impeachment managers' video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERIbhsCzZwk&t=9s

Beyond disgusting that ANYONE can watch this and deny their Constitutional duty.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 9th, 2021, 10:17 pm

Trump's lawyers, who are absolutely terrible, are better on defense than Duke basketball.


Did I mention how bad those lawyers are? Hell, one of the senators from Louisiana felt compelled to vote for the trial to go ahead, and that was after he said just last week about what a farce it was! (PS, that guy is none too popular back home right now.)
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CrazyNotCrazie » February 9th, 2021, 10:41 pm

CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 9th, 2021, 10:17 pm
Trump's lawyers, who are absolutely terrible, are better on defense than Duke basketball.


Did I mention how bad those lawyers are? Hell, one of the senators from Louisiana felt compelled to vote for the trial to go ahead, and that was after he said just last week about what a farce it was! (PS, that guy is none too popular back home right now.)
The first one was really bad. I actually thought the second one did his job quite well (I wasn't listening as closely to him). I thought he was a despicable, nasty human being, but he did his job quite well. His goal is to a) give the Republicans some talking points so they can look in the mirror and say with a somewhat straight face that they are OK letting Trump off, and b) keep Trump's base engaged and loving him. I thought the Dems ran circles around him but in my view they were presenting a much better case. Given what he was working with, he did OK. I wonder if Trump pulls the first guy off the case.

I think the Dems need to do a better job explaining to the Senate (and America) what the burden of proof is here. I think the second guy did a decent job of muddying the waters on that. This is not a court of law - the burden of proof is different. Also, discuss the hypocrisy of Trump's lawyer saying this was a rush to judgement yet they got stalled when trying to get it done before January 20. Also, clarify the free speech issues.

As much as I am thrilled that Trump no longer is on Twitter, I am wondering if he would be putting his foot in his mouth right now in responding.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by ArkieDukie » February 10th, 2021, 7:14 am

dudog wrote:
February 9th, 2021, 6:31 pm
In case you missed it, here's the House impeachment managers' video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERIbhsCzZwk&t=9s

Beyond disgusting that ANYONE can watch this and deny their Constitutional duty.
Wow. Just. Wow.
The timing of his comments and tweets with events inside the Capitol is jarring - especially the Mike Pence tweet followed by chants from the crowd. Now I think it’s time to use and alter one of his favorite chants: lock him up!
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by Wander » February 10th, 2021, 5:02 pm

LMAO Troublemaker
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 10th, 2021, 6:15 pm

Wander wrote:
February 10th, 2021, 5:02 pm
LMAO Troublemaker
:chef: :eusa-naughty:
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am

I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by OPK » February 11th, 2021, 7:39 am

CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am
I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
They’re pretty fractured, and this impeachment is hot helping. Insert tiny violin playing.

Reagan was able to build a big tent and get disparate groups into the fold. Trumpism is based on dividing and bot adding though. And that leaves the party in a bad spot: you can’t win your primary if you’re not a Trumpist because they dominate the party, but it’s hard to win the general from that position when a majority of voters reject Trumpism. Georgia’s two Senate runoffs are perfect examples of this.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by dudog » February 11th, 2021, 7:46 am

OPK wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:39 am
CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am
I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
They’re pretty fractured, and this impeachment is hot helping. Insert tiny violin playing.

Reagan was able to build a big tent and get disparate groups into the fold. Trumpism is based on dividing and bot adding though. And that leaves the party in a bad spot: you can’t win your primary if you’re not a Trumpist because they dominate the party, but it’s hard to win the general from that position when a majority of voters reject Trumpism. Georgia’s two Senate runoffs are perfect examples of this.
Yes, and it's gone far beyond "He says and tweets obnoxious things" and "I'm tired of the drama". These images are gonna stay with people. It's truly another 9/11 for the visceral feeling it evokes. I didn't think I could get more pissed off, but these impeachment managers are doing a helluva job.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by ArkieDukie » February 11th, 2021, 7:55 am

CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am
I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
I’m totally on board with the party they are describing. I still think the best route would be to push Trump out and let him form his Patriot Party, leaving the Republicans with the center right, but now I don’t see that happening. The impeachment trial confirms it. Most of the Republican senators are firmly in Trump’s corner and will not budge.

Their current name ideas are not good. They need to come up with something catchier IMO. They need to consult a marketing firm if they’re going to do this right. They need a name that will be recognized and have positive connotations. This may sound crazy, but the school I taught at did this very thing when they underwent a name change.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 11th, 2021, 8:15 am

ArkieDukie wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:55 am
Their current name ideas are not good. They need to come up with something catchier IMO. They need to consult a marketing firm if they’re going to do this right. They need a name that will be recognized and have positive connotations. This may sound crazy, but the school I taught at did this very thing when they underwent a name change.
But the ones they are thinking about just roll right off the tongue!
Names under consideration for a new party include the Integrity Party and the Center Right Party. If it is decided instead to form a faction, one name under discussion is the Center Right Republicans.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by Furniture » February 11th, 2021, 9:12 am

dudog wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:46 am
OPK wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:39 am
CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am
I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
They’re pretty fractured, and this impeachment is hot helping. Insert tiny violin playing.

Reagan was able to build a big tent and get disparate groups into the fold. Trumpism is based on dividing and bot adding though. And that leaves the party in a bad spot: you can’t win your primary if you’re not a Trumpist because they dominate the party, but it’s hard to win the general from that position when a majority of voters reject Trumpism. Georgia’s two Senate runoffs are perfect examples of this.
Yes, and it's gone far beyond "He says and tweets obnoxious things" and "I'm tired of the drama". These images are gonna stay with people. It's truly another 9/11 for the visceral feeling it evokes. I didn't think I could get more pissed off, but these impeachment managers are doing a helluva job.
There you have it (see below). This isn’t going anywhere. Let’s face it the Trumpians like Cruz and Graham HAVE to say this. If Trump is found guilty the spotlight shines on them.

Sen. Ted Cruz said a direct link from Trump to the pro-Trump riot was "strikingly absent." The Texas Republican claimed that "there's not a political candidate in the country," including "every single one of the Democratic senators," who hasn't used the same language as Trump, who told his supporters "to fight like hell."
If anyone ever tells you they are a stable genius. Get the hell out of there.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by dudog » February 11th, 2021, 9:18 am

Furniture wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 9:12 am
dudog wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:46 am
OPK wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:39 am


They’re pretty fractured, and this impeachment is hot helping. Insert tiny violin playing.

Reagan was able to build a big tent and get disparate groups into the fold. Trumpism is based on dividing and bot adding though. And that leaves the party in a bad spot: you can’t win your primary if you’re not a Trumpist because they dominate the party, but it’s hard to win the general from that position when a majority of voters reject Trumpism. Georgia’s two Senate runoffs are perfect examples of this.
Yes, and it's gone far beyond "He says and tweets obnoxious things" and "I'm tired of the drama". These images are gonna stay with people. It's truly another 9/11 for the visceral feeling it evokes. I didn't think I could get more pissed off, but these impeachment managers are doing a helluva job.
There you have it (see below). This isn’t going anywhere. Let’s face it the Trumpians like Cruz and Graham HAVE to say this. If Trump is found guilty the spotlight shines on them.

Sen. Ted Cruz said a direct link from Trump to the pro-Trump riot was "strikingly absent." The Texas Republican claimed that "there's not a political candidate in the country," including "every single one of the Democratic senators," who hasn't used the same language as Trump, who told his supporters "to fight like hell."
Yeah, but have they said Cruz's wife was ugly and his father shot JFK? That's what makes Cruz even worse than Hawley, the complete and utter lack of cojones.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CrazyNotCrazie » February 11th, 2021, 9:56 am

ArkieDukie wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:55 am
CameronBornAndBred wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:34 am
I find this totally interesting. Several members of the GOP have been leaving, and now talk is building about them forming a third party.
I figured that it would be the other direction, in that Trump's base would be the one ones to defect (and form their "Patriot Party") since at least on paper they are in the minority.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics ... li=BBnb7Kz

Either way, the Democrats can't be terribly disappointed at the thought of the Republicans fracturing themselves even more.
I’m totally on board with the party they are describing. I still think the best route would be to push Trump out and let him form his Patriot Party, leaving the Republicans with the center right, but now I don’t see that happening. The impeachment trial confirms it. Most of the Republican senators are firmly in Trump’s corner and will not budge.

Their current name ideas are not good. They need to come up with something catchier IMO. They need to consult a marketing firm if they’re going to do this right. They need a name that will be recognized and have positive connotations. This may sound crazy, but the school I taught at did this very thing when they underwent a name change.
I was reading something earlier this week about politics in Ontario. There the current ruling party is called the Progressive Conservatives (often shortened to PC). They are center-right. In the US, a coalition of progressives and conservatives would be about as broad as possible - I can see a few issues they might agree on, but largely it wouldn't really work.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by gumbomoop » February 11th, 2021, 9:58 am

dudog wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:46 am
These images are gonna stay with people. It's truly another 9/11 for the visceral feeling it evokes.
I want to focus on dudog’s observation here to think aloud about the final act of this impeachment trial.

Lots of new documentary evidence presented yesterday. I understand it’s highly unlikely Trump will be convicted, but I am nevertheless interested in the number of R Senators who will vote to convict. I guess it’s somewhere between 0 and 8. Probably 4-5 (yes?), but probably not 8. How to get to 8?

If I had the ear of the managers, I’d suggest that their summing up include something like the following, which is premised on what I see as the importance of dudog’s point.
...........................................

The election of 2020 and its aftermath, including the Big Lie, January 6, and this trial will soon and for the next 10 years, and then 20 years, and then 50 years and beyond, be the subject of countless courses in American colleges and universities. History and Political Science courses on Electoral and Constitutional History, Constitutional Law. Their titles will include: The Election of 2020, American Carnage, The Attempted Coup of 2020, Overthrowing American Democracy, A Republic If You Can Keep It, The Implosion of Conservatism, American Terrorism, The Politics of Impeachment.

Courses in History and Political Science often rely substantially on what are called “primary sources,” original documents. Some are famous — the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Emancipation Proclamation, Supreme Court decisions. More broadly, primary sources include the written and oral testimony of millions of historical actors, leaders, citizens, activists of all persuasions.

But increasingly the primary sources of human history include visual as well as written and oral evidence. We the House Managers, in order to tell the story of the President’s incitement of insurrection, have presented both written and video evidence. You will soon vote on the basis of this evidence. Is it persuasive or not?

But know, too, that millions of students in the coming decades — beginning next academic year, and every year thereafter for decades and in hundreds of colleges and universities — will also read, hear, and watch this evidence. These startling images, these shocking sounds, these ugly, vicious voices are going to stay with these students. They will remember this vote — your vote — more than they will remember the details of the Declaration of Independence or the intricacies of the Emancipation Proclamation. They will study the election, compare the campaigns of Donald Trump and Joe Biden, learn about the several attempts to overthrow the results, watch the events of January 6, watch this impeachment trial. In the final weeks of these courses they will discuss the choices you Senators make. Your names are going to stay with many, many of these students.

It is often noted that the historical record holds accountable the makers of history. So, people ask you: How do you want History to judge you? But know this: “History” means students, those millions of students who will view the record of this election, this President’s behavior, the terrorist mob of January 6, this trial, your vote. They will see and hear what happened. They will see and hear terrorists in action. They will hold you accountable for your conviction of this President, and for your defense of this President.

How do you want to be known to history? How do you want to be known to generations of young people in the decades to come? Is loyalty to Donald Trump worth your good name?

.............................................

I doubt this would garner more than 1-3 additional votes for conviction. But I’d be glad if such an argument added even a single vote. So I’d like the final presentation to be solemn, foreboding, and focus on the future impact of those images and those sounds on those students, and their “judgment of history.”
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 11th, 2021, 11:46 am

Furniture wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 9:12 am
There you have it (see below). This isn’t going anywhere. Let’s face it the Trumpians like Cruz and Graham HAVE to say this. If Trump is found guilty the spotlight shines on them.

Sen. Ted Cruz said a direct link from Trump to the pro-Trump riot was "strikingly absent." The Texas Republican claimed that "there's not a political candidate in the country," including "every single one of the Democratic senators," who hasn't used the same language as Trump, who told his supporters "to fight like hell."
Image
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CrazyNotCrazie » February 11th, 2021, 12:03 pm

gumbomoop wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 9:58 am
dudog wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 7:46 am
These images are gonna stay with people. It's truly another 9/11 for the visceral feeling it evokes.
I want to focus on dudog’s observation here to think aloud about the final act of this impeachment trial.

Lots of new documentary evidence presented yesterday. I understand it’s highly unlikely Trump will be convicted, but I am nevertheless interested in the number of R Senators who will vote to convict. I guess it’s somewhere between 0 and 8. Probably 4-5 (yes?), but probably not 8. How to get to 8?

If I had the ear of the managers, I’d suggest that their summing up include something like the following, which is premised on what I see as the importance of dudog’s point.
...........................................

The election of 2020 and its aftermath, including the Big Lie, January 6, and this trial will soon and for the next 10 years, and then 20 years, and then 50 years and beyond, be the subject of countless courses in American colleges and universities. History and Political Science courses on Electoral and Constitutional History, Constitutional Law. Their titles will include: The Election of 2020, American Carnage, The Attempted Coup of 2020, Overthrowing American Democracy, A Republic If You Can Keep It, The Implosion of Conservatism, American Terrorism, The Politics of Impeachment.

Courses in History and Political Science often rely substantially on what are called “primary sources,” original documents. Some are famous — the Declaration of Independence, the U.S. Constitution, the Emancipation Proclamation, Supreme Court decisions. More broadly, primary sources include the written and oral testimony of millions of historical actors, leaders, citizens, activists of all persuasions.

But increasingly the primary sources of human history include visual as well as written and oral evidence. We the House Managers, in order to tell the story of the President’s incitement of insurrection, have presented both written and video evidence. You will soon vote on the basis of this evidence. Is it persuasive or not?

But know, too, that millions of students in the coming decades — beginning next academic year, and every year thereafter for decades and in hundreds of colleges and universities — will also read, hear, and watch this evidence. These startling images, these shocking sounds, these ugly, vicious voices are going to stay with these students. They will remember this vote — your vote — more than they will remember the details of the Declaration of Independence or the intricacies of the Emancipation Proclamation. They will study the election, compare the campaigns of Donald Trump and Joe Biden, learn about the several attempts to overthrow the results, watch the events of January 6, watch this impeachment trial. In the final weeks of these courses they will discuss the choices you Senators make. Your names are going to stay with many, many of these students.

It is often noted that the historical record holds accountable the makers of history. So, people ask you: How do you want History to judge you? But know this: “History” means students, those millions of students who will view the record of this election, this President’s behavior, the terrorist mob of January 6, this trial, your vote. They will see and hear what happened. They will see and hear terrorists in action. They will hold you accountable for your conviction of this President, and for your defense of this President.

How do you want to be known to history? How do you want to be known to generations of young people in the decades to come? Is loyalty to Donald Trump worth your good name?

.............................................

I doubt this would garner more than 1-3 additional votes for conviction. But I’d be glad if such an argument added even a single vote. So I’d like the final presentation to be solemn, foreboding, and focus on the future impact of those images and those sounds on those students, and their “judgment of history.”
Wow. Really well put. Hopefully they will do something like that. To make it even more personal, I would add something along the lines of "And do you want your children, grandchildren, and other descendants to wonder how their forebearer could be supportive of this? The man had no problem with you being put within a few feet of death at the hands of an angry mob while you were dutifully serving your country because he couldn't admit defeat? Look your grandchild in the eye and explain that! All major forms of religion preach the concepts of love and unity, yet this man spent four plus years spewing venomous, hateful language promoting divisiveness, and this language clearly led to death and injury. When you meet your maker, do you want to be aligned with someone who violated the basic principles of your religion?"

Maybe goes a bit far, but you see my point.
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Re: The Political Junkie Thread

Post by CameronBornAndBred » February 11th, 2021, 12:17 pm

CrazyNotCrazie wrote:
February 11th, 2021, 12:03 pm
Wow. Really well put. Hopefully they will do something like that. To make it even more personal, I would add something along the lines of "And do you want your children, grandchildren, and other descendants to wonder how their forebearer could be supportive of this? The man had no problem with you being put within a few feet of death at the hands of an angry mob while you were dutifully serving your country because he couldn't admit defeat? Look your grandchild in the eye and explain that!
These are the same people that continued to deny that COVID should be taken seriously, shunned masks and social distancing even though there were members of their own party literally dying, all because their leader thought it was a sign of weakness. I truly think that even if one of them had been physically harmed or worse on the 6th, they would still acquit. I'm betting members of the Capitol Police would agree with me.
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