Biden won, it's over --- The Election Thread

[CrazyNotCrazie]

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sound’s the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

Robert Frost

Hoping we all sleep well as our miles come to a nearing end.

Nice. The last stanza of that poem was my senior yearbook quote in HS. It's going to be a very long day. Heading out to the polls shortly.

[gumbomoop]

I know plenty of conservative lawyers. I know very few that support Trump. His constant attacks on the rule of law is an assault on something we all take pretty seriously. I have been sworn into, and appeared, in courts as high as the U.S. Supremes and as low as local small claims court. The oath I take for admission is essentially the same as the President takes — to support and defend the laws of the United States and of my jurisdiction. There are lots of lawyer jokes — and a few assholes who make those jokes deserved — but by and large lawyers believe in the rule of law. Deeply.

Apologies for the belated response to OPK here, but I want to ask about this point. I hope OPK and others will not see this post as snark. I intend, instead, to ask a thoughtful poster and lawyer (yes?) a question that reflects real confusion, sometimes anger, among non-lawyers all the time.

I absolutely am willing believe that “by and large lawyers believe in the rule of law. Deeply.” Yet we read that Team Trump has already gathered a team of dozens/hundreds of lawyers to challenge an untold number of votes legitimately cast. They are going to support, with sometimes complicated legal argumentation, what we all know is voter suppression. What Team Trump threatens is not a legitimate, rule-of-law tactic. This is not a close call, a reasonable thing. It’s the mark of fascist authoritarianism.

Thus, I tentatively conclude that either (1) “by and large” is a solid majority, but nowhere near an overwhelming 90-95%, and that there are way way more than merely “a few assholes who make those jokes deserved” and who are not deeply committed to the rule of law; or (2) nearly as often as not, the rule of law is manipulated to uphold power rather than to implement justice.

Is there a third possibility? I’m asking.

[ArkieDukie]

Just returned home from voting. The line was quite long; it took about an hour and a half. The line was still long when I left, but not as long as when I got there. I think turnout will be high.

[dudog]

The Bloomberg Editorial Board says it better than I ever could:

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/opinion/ ... li=BBnbfcL

[gumbomoop]

And why anyone would want that in a President is something that continues to completely escape me. I just do not get it.

I need a shower. How do his supporters defend this?

I tag-quote these 2 responses to the Trump truck caravan merely as a jumping-off point to the larger issue: the people. I do not propose to offer a definitive answer to the above questions. I am more “thinking aloud” about why I think Phredd3 and CNC are getting at the right question. My post repeats some stuff I’ve said here before.

We know what Trump is. And we know that real conservatives have left the Republican party to the no-longer-conservative enablers in both houses of Congress.

We are faced with the prospect that, win or lose, Trump will get the votes of ~65-70 million of our fellow citizens.

My mantra is, “Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid.” To watch Fox News “opinion makers” of an evening is an act of willful ignorance. Acts of willful ignorance have proliferated in recent years. The longstanding, implicit way to determine a “fact” has disappeared among millions of Americans. The very idea of “alternate facts” betrays not only science, but common sense, and leads to QAnon fantasies, the “truth” of which convinces yet more Trumpists daily. Talk about needing a shower......

It also leads to fascism. I do not use this merely as a shocking label; I mean it literally. Trump literally ran a fascist-themed campaign in 2016 — historically great nation undermined by vermin, dark-skinned Others, saved only by a Strongman proclaiming racially superior, manly values — and has built on it, more and more explicitly by 2020.

The core of Trumpism is fascism. The neo-Nazis and white supremacists see him as one of them. He encourages their lawlessness, in the name of law and order. He encourages violence, in the name of restoring calm. He encourages voter suppression, in the name of protecting the vote. Trumpist fascism is the Big Lie writ very large.

These are obvious to normal people. But a significant minority of Trumpists are drawn to fascism. And a majority of Trumpists live in an altered state of reality, ignorant of basic facts, evidence-based science and news. For them the pandemic is mostly fake news. Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid, not just to the willfully ignorant but to the hostages to their stupidity: you and me. Trumpists frequently claim to live in “the real world.” In fact they inhabit an unreal world, dragging us by their ignorance and stupidity into that netherworld.

That netherworld is fascism, which is not entirely unknown in American history. In fact, exactly 100 years ago — a coincidence, not a history-repeats-itself theme — the Second KKK took power in a number of states for several years in the 1920s. Their “reactionary populism” was built on the themes that Trump stumbled into in the years leading up to 2016: “alien forces,” abetted by callow liberalism, were overrunning the country. Like the 1920s Klan, Trump rose to power by promising to make America great again through a return to “true Americanism,” suppression of immigration, and manly white nationalism.

The context of the rise of this Second Klan was unnerving economic and technological change plus a world war. The context of Trumpism’s rise was decades of confusing, often horrific, military engagements with uncertain or disappointing results, a deep recession with a slow recovery, and decades-long-developing inequality of ghastly proportions.

A significant proportion of Americans, busy just trying to cope, ignorant of the complexities of their own country’s political culture, not to mention the Constitution itself, committed to their faith and to their real religion — sports — slid into willful ignorance. Which led to the dangerous stupidity of 2016’s World Historical Mistake.

Tens of millions of American — some understandably aggrieved by vast inequality, others aggrieved by abortion, others doing very, very well and therefore aggrieved by the threat of “socialism,” all aggrieved by political correctness — hope to stop history in its tracks.

[hml1959]

Just returned home from voting. The line was quite long; it took about an hour and a half. The line was still long when I left, but not as long as when I got there. I think turnout will be high.

Where was this?

[dudog]

First, understand that my family is a little screwy. But I don't think that makes us unique.

I just received this text from my sister, my last remaining relative: "I hope u didn't vote for Biden. I might have to disown u if u did"

And that, in a nutshell, is what Trump has done to this country.

(BTW, is there an adoption market for 58-year-olds?)

[Nrrrrvous]

First, understand that my family is a little screwy. But I don't think that makes us unique.

I just received this text from my sister, my last remaining relative: "I hope u didn't vote for Biden. I might have to disown u if u did"

And that, in a nutshell, is what Trump has done to this country.

(BTW, is there an adoption market for 58-year-olds?)

You can join my little fam. I was born and raised in very rural VA, moved out and got an education. My relatives/friends from home have all since disowned me. (That boy jest don git it!)

[CrazyNotCrazie]

First, understand that my family is a little screwy. But I don't think that makes us unique.

I just received this text from my sister, my last remaining relative: "I hope u didn't vote for Biden. I might have to disown u if u did"

And that, in a nutshell, is what Trump has done to this country.

(BTW, is there an adoption market for 58-year-olds?)

I don't know you very well except for your posts here and OY and some very enjoyable PM's we have exchanged. From what I do know of you, you are pretty clear cut and out there about your political beliefs. If she thought there was any doubt about who you were voting for, then I can't help her. I guess she is like other Trump supporters who are brainwashed into thinking that they are right, everyone else is nuts, and there is no logical reason why someone would support Biden. I wish you the best of luck.

My oldest first cousin (in her late 60s) who I was very close to has always been a bit all over the place politically - I try not to discuss it with her but she is very outspoken. In the last few years she has become anti-vax. And this year that led her to the "Covid is a hoax" camp. I believe she has also flipped to the Trump side. She lives in an exurb of NY. We usually speak every month or two and she had told me at the start of the summer that I was welcome to bring my kids to her house to use her pool and we could socialize from a distance, but I have had nothing to do with her as I can't listen to her craziness. In a few days I will ask her kids how she responded to the election and go from there. Ironically, every conversation involves her telling me how much she admired and respected the opinions of my late mother, who was basically RBG Jr.

[Phredd3]

And why anyone would want that in a President is something that continues to completely escape me. I just do not get it.

I need a shower. How do his supporters defend this?

I tag-quote these 2 responses to the Trump truck caravan merely as a jumping-off point to the larger issue: the people. I do not propose to offer a definitive answer to the above questions. I am more “thinking aloud” about why I think Phredd3 and CNC are getting at the right question. My post repeats some stuff I’ve said here before.

We know what Trump is. And we know that real conservatives have left the Republican party to the no-longer-conservative enablers in both houses of Congress.

We are faced with the prospect that, win or lose, Trump will get the votes of ~65-70 million of our fellow citizens.

My mantra is, “Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid.” To watch Fox News “opinion makers” of an evening is an act of willful ignorance. Acts of willful ignorance have proliferated in recent years. The longstanding, implicit way to determine a “fact” has disappeared among millions of Americans. The very idea of “alternate facts” betrays not only science, but common sense, and leads to QAnon fantasies, the “truth” of which convinces yet more Trumpists daily. Talk about needing a shower......

It also leads to fascism. I do not use this merely as a shocking label; I mean it literally. Trump literally ran a fascist-themed campaign in 2016 — historically great nation undermined by vermin, dark-skinned Others, saved only by a Strongman proclaiming racially superior, manly values — and has built on it, more and more explicitly by 2020.

The core of Trumpism is fascism. The neo-Nazis and white supremacists see him as one of them. He encourages their lawlessness, in the name of law and order. He encourages violence, in the name of restoring calm. He encourages voter suppression, in the name of protecting the vote. Trumpist fascism is the Big Lie writ very large.

These are obvious to normal people. But a significant minority of Trumpists are drawn to fascism. And a majority of Trumpists live in an altered state of reality, ignorant of basic facts, evidence-based science and news. For them the pandemic is mostly fake news. Willful ignorance is dangerously stupid, not just to the willfully ignorant but to the hostages to their stupidity: you and me. Trumpists frequently claim to live in “the real world.” In fact they inhabit an unreal world, dragging us by their ignorance and stupidity into that netherworld.

That netherworld is fascism, which is not entirely unknown in American history. In fact, exactly 100 years ago — a coincidence, not a history-repeats-itself theme — the Second KKK took power in a number of states for several years in the 1920s. Their “reactionary populism” was built on the themes that Trump stumbled into in the years leading up to 2016: “alien forces,” abetted by callow liberalism, were overrunning the country. Like the 1920s Klan, Trump rose to power by promising to make America great again through a return to “true Americanism,” suppression of immigration, and manly white nationalism.

The context of the rise of this Second Klan was unnerving economic and technological change plus a world war. The context of Trumpism’s rise was decades of confusing, often horrific, military engagements with uncertain or disappointing results, a deep recession with a slow recovery, and decades-long-developing inequality of ghastly proportions.

A significant proportion of Americans, busy just trying to cope, ignorant of the complexities of their own country’s political culture, not to mention the Constitution itself, committed to their faith and to their real religion — sports — slid into willful ignorance. Which led to the dangerous stupidity of 2016’s World Historical Mistake.

Tens of millions of American — some understandably aggrieved by vast inequality, others aggrieved by abortion, others doing very, very well and therefore aggrieved by the threat of “socialism,” all aggrieved by political correctness — hope to stop history in its tracks.

Great post. Spot on in every way. Here's hoping that, although we still have tens of millions subscribing to a neo-fascist ideology, very shortly we will no long have a leader and party in control that feed it. With vigilance and time, perhaps that particular vine can be made to wither. I would welcome principled debates with conservatives again.

[CameronBornAndBred]

NC folks will have to wait a little longer to learn results tonight. (Obviously not including the mail-ins that have until the 12th to be counted.)

The North Carolina State Board of Elections has voted to keep four polling places open longer because they opened late, which is expected to delay statewide reporting of results.

The longest extension was 45 minutes for a site in Sampson County. That means the state can’t publicly report any statewide results until 8:15 p.m. State elections officials said in a news release last week that if hours are extended at any polls, they wouldn’t publicly post any results until all polls are closed.

https://www.witn.com/2020/11/03/north-c ... en-longer/

[mattman91]

Updated prediction.

[ArkieDukie]

Just returned home from voting. The line was quite long; it took about an hour and a half. The line was still long when I left, but not as long as when I got there. I think turnout will be high.

Where was this?

St Louis metro area

[acymetric]

Just returned home from voting. The line was quite long; it took about an hour and a half. The line was still long when I left, but not as long as when I got there. I think turnout will be high.

Where was this?

St Louis metro area

Which is crazy because turnout was ALREADY high with all the early voting.

[OPK]

Y’all should join the live chat

[Bluedog]

Y’all should join the live chat

Is this it?
http://crazietalk.net/chat/

I can't get on with my phone. Maybe need to use computer...

[CameronBornAndBred]

Y’all should join the live chat

Is this it?
http://crazietalk.net/chat/

I can't get on with my phone. Maybe need to use computer...

Yep. If you use a phone, it's a headache. You have to start at the main page www.crazietalk.net and select web at the bottom. And once you get in, it's still a hassle.

[acymetric]

Y’all should join the live chat

Is this it?
http://crazietalk.net/chat/

I can't get on with my phone. Maybe need to use computer...

Yep. If you use a phone, it's a headache. You have to start at the main page www.crazietalk.net and select web at the bottom. And once you get in, it's still a hassle.

When I used a phone, I would switch the browser to desktop mode to get into the chat and then switch back to mobile once I was signed in and it worked fine for the most part (sometimes I had to clear my cache after switching to desktop mode).

[CameronBornAndBred]

People that suck.

• Nate Silver
  Nate Silver
  Nate Silver
  
  
  Also, Nate Silver

[OPK]

People that suck.

• Nate Silver
  Nate Silver
  Nate Silver
  
  
  Also, Nate Silver

Don’t say that OY though! My last effort at broaching thus subject Monday was not well-received.