Biden won, it's over --- The Election Thread

[Wander]

Even with the assist from China releasing the Covid virus, I think it’s likely Trump still wins. And yes, I think it was a deliberate action by China. Trump has been crushing them on trade and was cruising to a landslide victory without this pandemic mess he’s had to deal with. Idon’t believe in a coincidence like that.

Thank you for revealing yourself as a dishonest conspiracy theorist that I don't need to engage with.

[hml1959]

Has anyone gotten on a flight lately full of dark shadowy people in black uniforms? No?

He also presented a series of conspiracy theories, claiming “people that are in the dark shadows” control both “the streets” and former Vice President Joe Biden. And he spun a conspiracy theory about an airplane:

“We had somebody get on a plane from a certain city this weekend. And in the plane, it was almost completely loaded with thugs, wearing these dark uniforms, black uniforms, with gear and this and that.”

Trump claimed the people on the plane wanted to “do big damage” to the Republican National Convention, yet offered no other details.

For me this is veering into 25th Amendment territory. He's either lying deliberately or he's delusional. If this moment doesn't convince people that this guy should not be President, I don't know what to say. The potential for a disaster even greater than 200000 plus deaths from Covid is just too real.

[Wheat/“/“/“]

Even with the assist from China releasing the Covid virus, I think it’s likely Trump still wins. And yes, I think it was a deliberate action by China. Trump has been crushing them on trade and was cruising to a landslide victory without this pandemic mess he’s had to deal with. Idon’t believe in a coincidence like that.

Thank you for revealing yourself as a dishonest conspiracy theorist that I don't need to engage with.

Why would you think I’m dishonest for having the opinion that China allowed this virus to get out? If anything, I’m being very honest with my opinion.

It’s certainly not beyond them.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Even with the assist from China releasing the Covid virus, I think it’s likely Trump still wins. And yes, I think it was a deliberate action by China. Trump has been crushing them on trade and was cruising to a landslide victory without this pandemic mess he’s had to deal with. Idon’t believe in a coincidence like that.

Thank you for revealing yourself as a dishonest conspiracy theorist that I don't need to engage with.

Why would you think I’m dishonest for having the opinion that China allowed this virus to get out? If anything, I’m being very honest with my opinion.

It’s certainly not beyond them.

I find it unbelievable that ANYONE truly believes that one country unleashed a deadly virus on the whole fucking planet just to get back at one guy. But that is what you are postulating. That is insanity.
I don't think you are dishonest for having that opinion, nor insane for having that opinion, but I do truly believe that what you are buying into is insane.
And sadly, you are not alone in your delusion. I know it is impossible for you to step out of your skin and look objectively at what you believe in, but, whew, that's some deep darkness right there.

[gumbomoop]

If I were somehow a totally neutral observer, I could perhaps view the debate between Trump supporters and opponents with detached fascination at the set of alternative facts. In our everyday lives, we do our jobs, fret about children, help neighbors with fallen trees, argue about sports, put up with the mundane, look for joy. We’re alike.

But in the political-cultural world, those alternative versions of reality take over. So debating Wheat re Trump leads to no new perceptions, no understanding. So I respond to a few of Wheat’s views simply to counter what I see as some of the most fallacious.

Wheat buys into several conspiracy theories. Xi Jinping deliberately loosed the virus onto the world, starting with his own people. Biden is controlled by someone “behind the curtain.” Does Wheat similarly subscribe to QAnon theories about Secrets and the Hillary-led child sex ring and cannibalism? Well, Trump “welcomes” the support of QAnon. Is that unimportant?

Wheat will not address Trump’s character, implying character simply does not count. Yet he thinks Biden a lifelong swamp creature, ignoring Trumps’s infamous New York swamp upbringing, where he was mentored by Joe McCarthy’s old right hand man, Roy Cohn, by the ‘80s a mob thug. That was key to Trump’s emerging sociopathy, in which the central rule is, “Do anything to win.” Including, welcome support of QAnon filth, politicize the Justice and State Departments, not to mention the Director of National Intelligence.

Wheat wonders whether Biden has accomplished anything in all his years as a swamp creature. I think over the years you’d have found few knowledgeable about national politics who thought Biden either swampy, unkind, self-obsessed, rich, or unaccomplished. I suppose he’s best known as the chief author (“author” if one prefers) of the ‘94 Crime Bill, especially the Violence Against Women Act, and the Assault Weapons Ban (alas expired, I think). He has an admirable history with legislation against drug abuse. In foreign policy, he worked closely for years with Richard Lugar, Chuck Hegel, and John McCain, conservatives all.

Ah, conservatism. Wheat seems unconcerned at the fact that weekly more and more actual conservatives — as opposed to loony-conspiracy-theory-believing Trumpists — denounce the President in tweets, op-eds, blogs, articles, books. These are lifelong adherents to a major political philosophy in western history. They know what those truly deranged by Trump — his own most enthusiastic supporters — do not: that Trump has totally abandoned conservatism for the politics of a strongman personality cult.

In our everyday lives, we’re alike. But the brave new world of alternative facts seems to have led to contrasting, irreconcilable moral universes. I walk around every day in my mountaintop forest. It’s the same earth as Wheat’s fishing territory.

Same earth, but different moral universes.

[dudog]

Wheat will not address Trump’s character, implying character simply does not count.

But, but...he wrote "I care about character." It's buried in this morning's post. Which is about the time I stopped listening.

[CameronBornAndBred]

In our everyday lives, we’re alike. But the brave new world of alternative facts seems to have led to contrasting, irreconcilable moral universes. I walk around every day in my mountaintop forest. It’s the same earth as Wheat’s fishing territory.

Same earth, but different moral universes.

[CrazyNotCrazie]

If I were somehow a totally neutral observer, I could perhaps view the debate between Trump supporters and opponents with detached fascination at the set of alternative facts. In our everyday lives, we do our jobs, fret about children, help neighbors with fallen trees, argue about sports, put up with the mundane, look for joy. We’re alike.

But in the political-cultural world, those alternative versions of reality take over. So debating Wheat re Trump leads to no new perceptions, no understanding. So I respond to a few of Wheat’s views simply to counter what I see as some of the most fallacious.

Wheat buys into several conspiracy theories. Xi Jinping deliberately loosed the virus onto the world, starting with his own people. Biden is controlled by someone “behind the curtain.” Does Wheat similarly subscribe to QAnon theories about Secrets and the Hillary-led child sex ring and cannibalism? Well, Trump “welcomes” the support of QAnon. Is that unimportant?

Wheat will not address Trump’s character, implying character simply does not count. Yet he thinks Biden a lifelong swamp creature, ignoring Trumps’s infamous New York swamp upbringing, where he was mentored by Joe McCarthy’s old right hand man, Roy Cohn, by the ‘80s a mob thug. That was key to Trump’s emerging sociopathy, in which the central rule is, “Do anything to win.” Including, welcome support of QAnon filth, politicize the Justice and State Departments, not to mention the Director of National Intelligence.

Wheat wonders whether Biden has accomplished anything in all his years as a swamp creature. I think over the years you’d have found few knowledgeable about national politics who thought Biden either swampy, unkind, self-obsessed, rich, or unaccomplished. I suppose he’s best known as the chief author (“author” if one prefers) of the ‘94 Crime Bill, especially the Violence Against Women Act, and the Assault Weapons Ban (alas expired, I think). He has an admirable history with legislation against drug abuse. In foreign policy, he worked closely for years with Richard Lugar, Chuck Hegel, and John McCain, conservatives all.

Ah, conservatism. Wheat seems unconcerned at the fact that weekly more and more actual conservatives — as opposed to loony-conspiracy-theory-believing Trumpists — denounce the President in tweets, op-eds, blogs, articles, books. These are lifelong adherents to a major political philosophy in western history. They know what those truly deranged by Trump — his own most enthusiastic supporters — do not: that Trump has totally abandoned conservatism for the politics of a strongman personality cult.

In our everyday lives, we’re alike. But the brave new world of alternative facts seems to have led to contrasting, irreconcilable moral universes. I walk around every day in my mountaintop forest. It’s the same earth as Wheat’s fishing territory.

Same earth, but different moral universes.

I will get my one nice thing about Wheat out of the way first - I appreciate that there was at least a little bit of effort by him to discuss policy, and not solely base his analysis on ridiculous "facts" about Biden, Democrats, etc. I don't agree with a lot of his takes on policy and I think that a lot of it was inaccurate but there was a little bit of substance in there.

I don't know why he consistently assigns the most extreme views of fringe Democrats to Biden - again - this is just repeating what he hears from Trump, Fox, etc. Biden does not want to get rid of all guns - he just wants sensible gun laws, like most Americans (including many Republicans). He doesn't want wide open borders - he just doesn't want to be like Stephen Miller and treat all immigrants as the enemy, as we were all once them. He wants fiscal responsibility - Trump's tax cuts only benefit the rich and some day we will have to pay for them - we can't just keep running up a deficit. And Democrats are not solely responsible for this alleged violence taking place in cities. Trump takes credit for the good but when bad things happen, they are always outside his purview. And the number of people dying from this violence Trump is so focused on is trivial compared to the number who have died from COVID, which Trump turned from a science issue into a political one and then screwed it up.

As I have said earlier, I am all for trying to have a rational, fact-based conversation with a Trump supporter. But I think that this exercise of the past day or two proves that it is simply impossible. As you said, they live in a totally different moral universe. They believe what they want to believe. There are no longer common "truths that we hold self-evident." I don't know what caused them to flip the switch. There are sectors of the "MSM" that sometimes goes a bit overboard and inject their left-wing biases in its reporting. But though they have their moments, the news pages (not the edit pages) of the NY Times, Washington Post, etc. are largely doing the same journalism they have for years. And they are calling a spade a spade - Trump is a very mentally ill human being who is destroying everything this country was built on for his own personal benefit. He has taken divisions that were gradually growing and completely split our nation in half. The president is supposed to united us but everything he does is Us vs. Them. Democrats have done some of this, but it is nothing compared to Trump.

So I think we should move on. This attempted dialogue with Wheat is pointless. His vote counts as much as mine (I think a lot more, actually, since due to the ridiculousness of the electoral college my vote is worthless). But we are not going to convince him and he clearly is not going to convince us. This is just a gigantic waste of time and exercise in frustration.

[CameronBornAndBred]

So I think we should move on. This attempted dialogue with Wheat is pointless. His vote counts as much as mine (I think a lot more, actually, since due to the ridiculousness of the electoral college my vote is worthless). But we are not going to convince him and he clearly is not going to convince us. This is just a gigantic waste of time and exercise in frustration.

And that is the best way for this thread to be fruitful! Wheat and anyone else on the right is of course welcome to post their opinions, as he has done. But it's easy to see that nobody is going to change anyone's mind with a board post. (If you actually do that, you are going to be rich and I want to be your new best friend.)

So with that in mind, keep contributing, bring new thoughts, new polls, new stories and we'll meander our way towards November. And we'll enjoy saying "that's some fucking fucked up shit right there" along the way.
I truly enjoy the openness of this thread and how it's moved along.

[dudog]

So I think we should move on. This attempted dialogue with Wheat is pointless. His vote counts as much as mine (I think a lot more, actually, since due to the ridiculousness of the electoral college my vote is worthless). But we are not going to convince him and he clearly is not going to convince us. This is just a gigantic waste of time and exercise in frustration.

And that is the best way for this thread to be fruitful! Wheat and anyone else on the right is of course welcome to post their opinions, as he has done. But it's easy to see that nobody is going to change anyone's mind with a board post. (If you actually do that, you are going to be rich and I want to be your new best friend.)

So with that in mind, keep contributing, bring new thoughts, new polls, new stories and we'll meander our way towards November. And we'll enjoy saying "that's some fucking fucked up shit right there" along the way.
I truly enjoy the openness of this thread and how it's moved along.

Yes, thanks. It certainly is enlightening. Or darkening I guess.

[JWill Stan]

So I think we should move on. This attempted dialogue with Wheat is pointless. His vote counts as much as mine (I think a lot more, actually, since due to the ridiculousness of the electoral college my vote is worthless). But we are not going to convince him and he clearly is not going to convince us. This is just a gigantic waste of time and exercise in frustration.

And that is the best way for this thread to be fruitful! Wheat and anyone else on the right is of course welcome to post their opinions, as he has done. But it's easy to see that nobody is going to change anyone's mind with a board post. (If you actually do that, you are going to be rich and I want to be your new best friend.)

So with that in mind, keep contributing, bring new thoughts, new polls, new stories and we'll meander our way towards November. And we'll enjoy saying "that's some fucking fucked up shit right there" along the way.
I truly enjoy the openness of this thread and how it's moved along.

I have been following the last few days and I admire the energy of those that have refuted Wheat's posts. I just...can't. It's too exhausting. Trump is exhausting. That's part of his strategy. Wear you down, distract, avoid discussion of issues that reflect poorly on him. There is growing sentiment from more staid portions of the establishment - military and intelligence - that he's a danger to the US. The more fringe, bordering on conspiracy corners of the internet have long held that he is a Russian asset, or owned by the Russian mob, or both. I as a mere citizen will never be privy to the information that proves or disproves this either way but I know he's diminished the US standing in the world. He is the most corrupt and self-serving president* to ever hold office, it's not even close. Look up "active measures" and "flooding the zone" for some reading on how Ferret-wearing Shitgibbon manipulates the media and distracts from the serious issues at hand.

I'll say 2 more things that are health related since that's my field: no one has mentioned health insurance coverage or his attempts to kill the ACA, or his disastrous, non-science-based, wish-it-away lack of response to the "China virus" (/snark). Well maybe it was mentioned in passing earlier but the fact is other countries did far better because they didn't deflect and avoid and marginalize their experts, all in the name of trying to prevent it from damaging dear leader.

I could go on but I'm exhausted.

[dudog]

Just gotta say, I'm disgusted with this country that it's even close.

[Phredd3]

So I think we should move on. This attempted dialogue with Wheat is pointless. His vote counts as much as mine (I think a lot more, actually, since due to the ridiculousness of the electoral college my vote is worthless). But we are not going to convince him and he clearly is not going to convince us. This is just a gigantic waste of time and exercise in frustration.

I'm going to respectfully disagree with this take. I think the engagement is helpful. Perhaps Wheat will not change his mind, perhaps I won't change mine. But I find that in actual practice, engagement does change minds and brings people together in the end. It doesn't so in a revelatory, "ah-hah" moment kind of way, as people often seem to be trying to achieve. Rather, it is incremental, as you start to realize that even people with whom you strongly disagree have points of view that have a point. We like to paint each other as one-dimensional. We aren't. None of us.

Highlighting that helps more than being in an echo chamber to my way of thinking.

[OPK]

Just gotta say, I'm disgusted with this country that it's even close.

This. I’ve given up arguing because I can’t fight years of FoxNews bile and bullshit. Trump shits on McCain, the Bushes, Mitt Romney, gold star parents, professional soldiers, The FB of I, and respected Republican careerists — and the same assholes who yelled at folks for not supporting those people are now yelling that they are not real Republicans. Meanwhile, the principled Republicans who supported those candidates and public servants are left without a home.

I am amazed at what the Republican Party has become — a festering globule of sycophantic pus. As an independent, there are numerous policies that I agree with in what used to be the GOP of Reagan and Jack Kemp. I admire, and have voted for, many Republicans over the years. One whiny bitch has wiped it away and the Vichy pussies that enable him just sit and smile. Abso-fucking-lutely pathetic.

If someone that supports Trump can explain his relationship with Russia, and how they support it despite decades of GOP hard lines against it, I’ll eat my hat. Fucking traitor.

[CameronBornAndBred]

and the same assholes who yelled at folks for not supporting those people are now yelling that they are not real Republicans. Meanwhile, the principled Republicans who supported those candidates and public servants are left without a home.

I am amazed at what the Republican Party has become — a festering globule of sycophantic pus. As an independent, there are numerous policies that I agree with in what used to be the GOP of Reagan and Jack Kemp. I admire, and have voted for, many Republicans over the years. One whiny bitch has wiped it away and the Vichy pussies that enable him just sit and smile.

This is something that has me so intrigued. At some point, maybe even this coming February, Donald Trump will no longer be the face of the GOP. How do they reconcile?

While this is "off topic" of the presidential race, it is a constant. Those folks went down a rabbit hole; I'm guessing it is going to take more than a few years of in-fighting to climb their way back out. If Biden wins, those left at the bottom are likely going to be in prison, unable to write the history they are counting on to treat them kindly.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Trump has essentially outed himself for suffering a series of min-strokes a while back, and he did it in the most Trumpian way possible.

He blames the fake news for reporting it, when NO media outlet ever has.
Sucks to make fun of him for health related issues, but, wow....it's his world he created, he has to live in it.

[hml1959]

Even with the assist from China releasing the Covid virus, I think it’s likely Trump still wins. And yes, I think it was a deliberate action by China. Trump has been crushing them on trade and was cruising to a landslide victory without this pandemic mess he’s had to deal with. Idon’t believe in a coincidence like that.

Thank you for revealing yourself as a dishonest conspiracy theorist that I don't need to engage with.

Why would you think I’m dishonest for having the opinion that China allowed this virus to get out? If anything, I’m being very honest with my opinion.

It’s certainly not beyond them.

No, but it's not a particularly rational thing to believe either. Think about it for a second. If you are a Chinese leader, you have to consider the risk/reward of such a strategy. The risk is that your actions are discovered and proven. In this case, China becomes a pariah nation, without a friend or a willing trading partner anywhere in the world. The whole international trading regime that has allowed you to move literally hundreds of millions of your citizens from extreme poverty to something approximating the middle class and is therefore the major pillar of your continued claims to political legitimacy and power collapses, maybe not overnight but certainly within a few years. OK, so what's the potential reward? That you inconvenience a political opponent whose trade war has maybe shaved a single percentage point from your economic growth. And BTW you could never have known that Trump's response would have been so incompetent as to endanger his re-election, so any possible reward would be uncertain at best. Do you really think the Chinese leadership is stupid enough to do a thing like this? In the whole world, I can only think of one political leader stupid enough to take a gamble like that, and it's not Xi Jinping.

[gumbomoop]

I’d like to ask a question to those several of you who mentioned, in connection with Wheat’s recent posts, that his views mirror what you hear from your own Trump-supporting acquaintances. I’m not trying to reëngage with Wheat here, though of course he can post on any subject he wants, whenever he wants.

One issue that I assume Trumpists prefer to avoid is the shocking news of Russian bounties on American soldiers in Afghanistan. We know that the White House knew of this intelligence in early 2019. Wheat didn’t mention this; nor would I expect him to do so. I’m a bit embarrassed that I failed to bring it up, in response to claims of “America First,” Trump’s great support for the military, etc.

Since Trump and Trumpists present themselves as super-patriotic, what do your Trumpist acquaintances say about this? Crickets? Fake news? Trump playing long-game 5-D chess?

[Wheat/“/“/“]

I don’t like Trumps character, I’ve been very clear on that and certainly not afraid to address his faults there. I also don’t like Biden’s character, he’s a lying career politician that’s tells people what he thinks they want to hear, and then works the back room ponds of the governments swamp to enrich himself and his family to the detriment of his country’s best interest. He’s all about gaining power for his elitist friends who think they know what’s best for you.

And those are our two choices. Not America’s best or brightest, but that’s what we have. So we have to set aside those character flaws and look at what they do, or what their party wants to do, if they are in office.

I’m just going to make one point tonight.
Here’s of the main reasons why I won’t vote for Biden, and you guys will love this but it’s the truth as I see it:

Racism.
Biden represents a party that plays the race card repeatedly and solely for political gain. Racist division is their ace in the hole every election, and the leftest media pushes the racism narrative as hard as they can every election to support them.

I’m sick of it, and it’s destroying the country.

There is some real racism around, but this country as a whole is not racist. We elected Obama on the back of middle class white Americans to prove that point as a country.

The truth is the Democratic Party doesn’t want to help the minority community, they want to rule them. Many minority voters are starting to see this, too.

Everywhere you look, cities and states that have been run for decades by democrats, and had 8 years of the Biden/Obama presidency, suffering and nothings changed for minorities in our inner cities.

Democratic leadership wants to keep those communities dependent so they can count on their vote. Welfare without responsibilities has not helped minorities, it’s handcuffed them.
It’s long past time to step up and help those Americans get out of that cycle, and the Republican Party is at least trying to help by focusing on economic opportunity zones and better policing in the inner cities to protect them. We obviously need to do more.

The democrats have no plan to do anything different and it’s not right or fair to those living in that situation.

The real problem in this country is poverty, crime, and lack of opportunities for minority Americans, not racism.
But democrats won’t and don’t address it because the more independent minorities get, the less they are likely to vote democrat.

Ask yourself why democrats won’t deal with the approximately 7,500 annual deaths of mostly inner city black men with the same passion that they show concerning the approximately 10 cases, in a country of 330 million, of police involved deaths this year of black Americans?

I’ll tell you why, It’s easier to fan the flames of racism with the “police are racist” narrative and whip up votes than deal with the real problems that they don’t have answers to.

FYI, I grew up idolizing Martin Luther King and what he accomplished to move forward combating racial injustice, peacefully.
There was real racism around in my youth. I saw it personally as a 10 year kid being segregated In the 60’s in N.C. and I’ve always fought it. My generation is the first where those of us privileged, not by skin color, but by being fortunate enough not to grow up in dire poverty, saw the injustice in minority opportunities to escape that poverty. I’ve stood behind efforts to help minorities my whole life and will continue to support minority Americans right to be treated equally and have the same opportunities as all Americans.

Conservatives believe that minorities can be best served by providing more opportunities economically and educationally and are willing to work with progressives towards that goal.

Trumps not really conservative, but he’s as close as we have this election, and he’s at least made an effort to help with educational opportunities like school choice and promoting economic policies that had minority unemployment at historic lows prior to Covid, helping millions of minorities.

And speaking of Covid. Maybe it was just an accident that the virus escaped China and ravenged the world. But don’t put it past communist leadership to sacrifice millions of lives to further their goals, it’s happened before.

That’s it for tonight.

[Furniture]

Gosh.....